[KNOWN] Good ol' Deck Sliding

[Danny_P]

I'd like to bring back the good old topic of sliding, slipping, skipping, warping, shift and whatever else you'd like to call it. This has never been resolved, only lessened and now it seems in the F-14 it's back again.

 

Two tracks added.

 

Let me just say again that this has never been fixed,,,, If the boat is moving the aircraft moves - this is at any speed, it's just a case of speed being a multiplier.

 

This is something that needs to be fixed properly as to me so far it seems to be just a hacky fix that works in some conditions. Anything with a rough sea state, or the boat turning - that is a major factor.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5sg1lplgqm6o99/DeckingSliddingForDays.zip?dl=0

Edited March 14, 2019 by Danny_P

[S D]

I can confirm this behaviour. As pointed out it was never really fixed for the F18, only reduced. This is visible when the ship is moving and more exaggerated when the ship is turning.

Its fairly easy to trigger this behaviour still in the F18, generally by adding or removing weight/stores/fuel from the aircraft. The aircraft will slide around slightly until the rearm/refuel is complete.

This has caused us to have to connect to the cats, before rearming in multiplayer, this seems to stop the sliding.

 

 

As for the Tomcat, the sliding is much worse than the F18 and very evident even on a ship moving at 8knts with any real kind of wind and sea state conditions.

 

 

Will just post this here, as it popped up in the Heatblur forum. Clearly shows the sliding and it gets much worse than what is shown here, when the conditions for the ship change.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Shadow.D.

[bell_rj]

Yeah I tried an F-14B carrier take-off in calm conditions and the sliding was very noticeable and WEIRD. No apologies for caps as it was a real immersion breaker. Please fix it ED.

[S D]

Just to add to this, it seems less connected to carrier speed and more to sea state, which is tied currently into wind. So unless you run a sterile weather enviroment with no wind or sea state you are going to get sliding/banding/desync whatever you want to call it.

 

 

I would put forward to anyone looking into this issue, please make sure you have wind set up in the test.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Shadow.D.

[Danny_P]

Now I maybe told to 'get back in my box' but I think the sliding bug is linked with the bouncing at airfield bug after carrier takeoff https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=232362&page=3

[smallberries]

Also, interestingly, you can get translational lift transition buffeting in the helos when you are stationary on deck, even with the ship's upper structure in front of you theoretically blocking the wind. All the little things that are hard to model....

[S D]

All the little things that are hard to model....

Something like the structure blocking wind i can accept is a challenge and something that might take a rework.

 

But what's being dicussed here, for a simulator that has released its flag ship product in the form of a carrier based aircraft with the F18, just being able to operate on the deck in anything resembling normal conditions never mind increased sea states/wind/weather. Is definitely not a little thing...

 

 

Out of interest smallberries, have you experienced deck sliding in the helos? If you have wind etc in your mission. This behaviour is definatly more visible in MP.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Shadow.D.

[smallberries]

Something like the structure blocking wind i can accept is a challenge and something that might take a rework.

 

But what's being dicussed here, for a simulator that has released its flag ship product in the form of a carrier based aircraft with the F18, just being able to operate on the deck in anything resembling normal conditions never mind increased sea states/wind/weather. Is definitely not a little thing...

 

 

Out of interest smallberries, have you experienced deck sliding in the helos? If you have wind etc in your mission. This behaviour is definatly more visible in MP.

 

I'm trying to remember clearly, it's possible there's a little rock and roll on the frigates, but I have never noticed the deck sliding that the planes could get when taxiing. Of course, the Huey flies to taxi anyways, not sure if the Ka-50 or Mi-8 ever had a problem taxiing true. I'll check it tomorrow.

[S D]

Sliding while taxiing is part of it, but a much bigger part is the shifting/sliding/desyncing on the spot while not moving. If possible check you have wind/weather set in the mission and the ship is moving, ideally in MP to see the full effect if you have the means.

[iRocco]

Please fix this finally ed

 

Gesendet von meinem SM-G960F mit Tapatalk

[WOPR]

Fell off the deck in an F-14 when it turned in a multiplayer server. Wheel brakes were on. Jet slid off backwards when the carrier turned left. Jet was parked on edge of flight deck and had not moved yet.

[smallberries]

I'm late on the reply but, yes, the helos slide a bit too.

[SonofEil]

I think we were all happy ED made some progress last year, but yeah, it’s still an issue for all aircraft and the Tomcat is particularly affected currently. If you’re doing a cold start it’ll slide halfway across the ship before you’re up and running.

[metzger]

+1, this should have been high priority issue even prior to releasing F/A-18.

 

My guess is it will be fixed in the new carriers which are currently WIP.

[Danny_P]

Unfortunately, based on previous efforts. I feel that they cannot fix it currently which is why there's been no acknowledgement of this post or others.... Now I'm not saying that it a way of 'ED is shite weh weh weh', these things are difficult to resolve as I'm sure it'll require a new way of thinking to their current method. But for me thus a core tech issue - it's one of those things that really really has to be resolved and resolved properly.

 

It would be great to at least see a little response, even if it's: "Yes, we currently don't have a solution but we are looking into it." As currently it seems like somethings are just going unnoticed, which makes 'bug reporting' a big waste of my/others time.

[Donut]

At the very least, acknowledgement of this issue by ED would be nice.

 

Realistic carrier ops are not possible and that to me is a game breaking bug when your two most popular products are naval aircraft.

 

Hopefully the new carrier by ED or the Forrestal from Heatblur will fix this issue, but there has been no news on either for a long time.

[Strikeeagle345]

been getting a ton of sliding in the Tomcat and Hornet last couple patches.

[MPK]

Here is a proposed solution:

 

I am assuming that the position/orientation/velocity of aircraft in the game is sent around the network relative to a global origin. What is needed is to send the position/orientation/velocity relative to the ship when the plane is on board. Add one or two bytes to the network message that indicates what the data is relative to (0 = global origin as it is now, other values reference all the various ships in the world).

 

That way, when your plane is on the ship, your client calculates your position relative to the ship's origin so you won't be sliding around anymore no matter how much the ship is moving (or how much lag there is), and the data sent to the server will be relative to the ship as well. When that message is distributed across the network, all other clients render your plane relative to the ship, not the global origin, so your plane doesn't slide on other people's clients, and vice versa.

 

So each frame, your client will take your plane's position/orientation/velocity relative to the ship, convert it to the global origin, do the normal physics update, but then convert it back to the ship origin for the network update.

 

With this system, the ship could be rocking 20 degrees and have a lot of network lag, and everyone will appear solid and stable on the ship's deck.

[NineLine]

I spent a few hours on a carrier in a MP server today, I didnt see any F-18s sliding. I know its an issue with the Tomcat right now, but I think Heatblur will need to work with ED on that.

[S D]

No i'm sorry Nineline that's not good enough. What conditions were the carrier running in? Was there any weather/wind/seastate in the mission? Was the carrier running at recovery speeds? Was it turning?

 

MP servers have to run close to sterile weather and slow carrier speeds to allow any kind of carrier operations.

 

The sliding behaviour in the F18 is indeed not as pronounced as the F14, but i would suggest that is because ED have had time to try and fix this issue. Which as mentioned above, i also do not believe they have a solution to, in terms of a core engine fix. Leading to attempts to patch the problem, which has no doubtedly reduced the behaviour in the F18. These same methods have not been applied to the Tomcat yet, hence the exaggerated behaviour. You see similar problems with the Harrier, Huey and i'm sure others which i have not landed on a ship.

 

I may be way off with the above, i hope i am and ED have something planned that can be a permanent solution. But right now as a consumer looking in, it feels this way. You acknowledge the behaviour with the F14, i hope with Heatblur and ED working together something can be done. Because this does effect all aircraft, fixed wing and rotary, operating off a carrier or ship.

 

All we want is an acknowledgement that it is recognized as a problem. If you guys haven't seen this in testing, then your testers must not be running real world values for carrier ops and different weather states. Which again considering the flagship products are carrier aircraft seems strange.

 

 

Just for test purposes i set up the following mission. The funny thing is, even is singleplayer, when you get some fuel removed, you slide about enough for the ground crew to shout at you for moving with the fuel hose still attached. In Multiplayer you just plain old slide off the deck. You can start a recovery window, in the radio F10 menu to make the boat turn.

DeckSlidingTestCau.miz

Edited March 28, 2019 by Shadow.D.

[NineLine]

No i'm sorry Nineline that's not good enough.

 

So where is your short simple track showing the issue? If you can reproduce it so easy, then, by all means, I would be happy to submit a report, but I have been checking out a number of different servers and I don't see any sliding, except with the Tomcat.

[Danny_P]

Nineline, Shadow has supplied a mission in their post for you to try out... We all know the track files don't always yield the same results and is essentially broken. May I suggest you load the mission that they have kindly supplied and try what shadow has said to reproduce the issue, then with all due respect 'get back in your box'.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Danny_P

[ARM505]

The Ka50 has slid around decks since day one of release. And the Huey, despite being on skids, will eventually slide off decks as well. It's clearly a problem with whatever system they're using, and no doubt hard to solve.

[FragBum]

Well a lot of modules seem to slide on aircraft carriers in MP it's common knowledge and funny to watch. :music_whistling:

[Pikey]

Track attached.

 

 

1. You must create roll on the deck, simply a normal wind down the deck for 30kts over the deck is pertinent, and required by any plane for carrier ops.

 

 

2. Examine hot and cold starts in various modules to understand where the module reverts to being "stuck" to the deck and where it begins to slide with the roll of the ship.

 

3. The attached trk file shows this, but you can reproduce with a rolling carrier and a module under power - tested Mi8, Huey, Tomcat, Harrier, Hornet.

 

My findings on the track:

 

1. Cold (parking brake on or off) and all tested modules will 'glue' and roll with the ship.

 

2. Try the hotstarts and see the differences. Each module is individual.

 

3. Only the Hornet and Harrier in the five modules I checked manages to keep rolling with the deck, the Tomcat, Mi8, and Huey will slip around with the roll once under a certain threshold of "power", for the Tomcat, it's at any power as far as I can tell.

 

4. This is NOT the same as the Tomcat RIO wobble which is in an earlier video and makes the backseat a puke fest, you literally cannot mouse over buttons in the cockpit. They may be related, but that's postulation, because the front seat and back seat are completely different experiences and that's for another report.

 

5. Helicopters at around 20-40% RPM will finally give up the sway and then glue to the deck. But any blade pitch at 40%-100% RPM and they are all over the place. It's int he track file, i power down both and you will see it suddenly glue to deck.

 

6. The Tomcat is particularly bad, but it's exhibiting the same problems we can see in the others just sooner. The Hornet is especially good, but it has a "sticky deck" issue on landing, meaning it glues rather hard on touchdown which I believe makes touch and go highly unrealistic as they should lift back up without too much effort rather than rolling across the deck at full power.

 

7. Conclusion from me is that this is all in the FM's about how tightly modules stick to decks and at what power rating, as each module exhibits it's own tendencies. BUT, it's the core physics of the game that require FM tuning to get the balance. I see this as a deep rooted limitation in the physics of the core game engine, not the separate modules, despite the FM's differences. Examples of the various times in the update notes that "Carrier deck sliding" has been fixed (I believe two but I think three occasions it has been mentioned) says something to the effect that the current physics are contained within the modules and not the core DCS world engine which cannot account for stationary airframes being effected whilst under power. It's always been this way in the engine and we are getting FM "Band aid fixes".

 

8. Potential fixes, I don't want to guess, but based on what I've seen over the years the FM's need to understand how to sit and sway on moving objects and keep the inertia of the object they are being pulled by.

 

Let me know if there is anything confusing, poorly explained or missed. Feel free to ignore this post, bury it, hide from obvious simulation issues and other wise allow customers to have to feel frustrated at the reporting process, it is of course your prerogative.

 

I am very disappointed that we have to jump through these hoops just to get this defined, I expected this to be well understood by the testing team, so it does lead me to the conclusion that either the testing team doesn't have any idea about the game, it's limits and history of helicopters sliding off decks over the years, or they know about them and are simply trying to evade issues that ED "will not fix". To imagine that in the last ten years you haven't seen this is to presume ignorance, and I don't believe the testing team are ignorant, I strongly believe this is being evaded.

server-20190329-131747.trk