On Speed Trim

[Mule]

I used to be able to get the Hornet trimmed for on speed relatively easily but lately I am having real problems doing so.

 

I have to apply back pressure on the stick all the time while I try to get it trimmed out. If I release any pressure the aircraft just sinks rapidly.

 

Is anyone else having any issues with this?

[smallberries]

Post-update axis conflict?

 

Gets 'em everytime...

[fitness88]

I used to be able to get the Hornet trimmed for on speed relatively easily but lately I am having real problems doing so.

 

I have to apply back pressure on the stick all the time while I try to get it trimmed out. If I release any pressure the aircraft just sinks rapidly.

 

Is anyone else having any issues with this?

 

 

 

+1...if I try to trim the back pressure off the nose comes up too high, micro throttle won't help either.

[DutchCoolHand]

I see the same, the Hornet normally trim to 1G and stabilizes but now the nose keeps dropping. When I trim up it keeps it there for a bit and the nose drops again.

[VFA41_Lion]

no problems here. check your bindings and inputs, etc, press right control + enter to see if anything is strange in the controls indicator

[DWF]

Agreed. There's something wrong with the flight model. Getting it trimmed on the downwind, base, and final is very difficult. Flaps will drop and the nose will pitch up and the aircraft will climb, almost unresponsive to trim input. Reducing power just makes it worse. Then just when you think you've got it under control, it starts to sink and it takes a bunch of power to recover from that...any way, it isn't pretty.

[Mule]

Agreed. There's something wrong with the flight model. Getting it trimmed on the downwind, base, and final is very difficult. Flaps will drop and the nose will pitch up and the aircraft will climb, almost unresponsive to trim input. Reducing power just makes it worse. Then just when you think you've got it under control, it starts to sink and it takes a bunch of power to recover from that...any way, it isn't pretty.

 

Yep, This is a better description of what's happening.

[Mule]

no problems here. check your bindings and inputs, etc, press right control + enter to see if anything is strange in the controls indicator

 

Thanks, will try that when I finish work.

 

Cheers.

[DeltaMike]

Yeah you know when I look at a flaps switch that says "full," "half," and "auto," I'm assuming that's what it does, but that just ain't so on the Hornet. Near as I can tell you're selecting modes. "Half" = takeoff mode, for example. Flaps half on the ground, flaps retract at 250, pitch trim button sets takeoff trim. "Full" = landing mode; flaps extend at 250 and pitch trim button dials in AoA. I don't think the Hornet has a pitch trim control in any traditional sense. In free flight, it trims itself. I think it does that on takeoff and landing too, just not very well. Meaning, you have to use pressure on the stick to maintain level flight above a certain air speed.

 

Let's say you drop your landing gear and set flaps to full at 250kts. You're going too fast for the auto-trim, the nose wants to rise and you can't fix that with the trim button, you need to use forward stick pressure to maintain level flight. As you pass through about 180, the trim button starts to work. As you go slower and slower, you now need back pressure on the stick to maintain level flight. Now your trim button has some authority, you can use it to relieve pressure on the stick.

 

Problem is, now you're flying around at a high AoA. You have a ton of drag, so now you need a ton of throttle to overcome that drag if you want to keep flying.

 

The effect of that is, you go from being idle throttle, trying to find some way to get the jet to slow down. All of a sudden you need at least half and maybe closer to 3/4 throttle, trying to find some way to keep the jet in the air. You have to do three things at once:

 

1. Go from stick forward to stick back

2. Mess around with the trim

3. Go from idle throttle to 3/4 throttle

 

All three have to be precise, with the hard part being the throttle. If you don't give it quite enough throttle, the aircraft sinks rapidly (some say too rapidly, I wouldn't know, never flew a real Hornet). If you give it too much throttle, and speed up, your nose climbs.

 

If you come from a general aviation background, either in sims or r/l, you get this pounded into your head: don't fly on the wrong side of the power curve. Don't fly down there where you need almost full throttle to maintain level flight. Main reason for that is, you don't have any way of knowing what your AoA is, no idea how close you are to a stall. If you run out of throttle, there's a tendency to want to yank back on the stick, and after a certain point, if you do that you aren't flying any more. But, I guess that's how you do it in the Hornet. Good news is, you know what your AoA is, so you won't be flying that close to the edge of disaster. And the aircraft will trim itself to a given AoA (up to a point) so if you're Johnny-on-the-spot with the throttle, you can keep the thing under control. Just gotta have control over the throttle.

 

It's a great system actually, it seems magic to me. The beauty of it is, once you get it set up right, of all the things you have to mess with, you don't have to fiddle with trim. I find it amazing the way you can dial in an AoA regardless of what you're doing with the throttle. The only price you pay is that brief moment of thrashing around as you're transitioning between 250 and 160kts. I don't think there's an easy way to fix that. You just have to train your left hand to be where it needs to be without having to re-invent the wheel every time you land.

 

Try this. RCTL+ENTER. That'll give you a visual cue as to throttle position. See if that doesn't help

Edited March 28, 2019 by DeltaMike

[Mule]

Yeah you know when I look at a flaps switch that says "full," "half," and "auto," I'm assuming that's what it does, but that just ain't so on the Hornet. Near as I can tell you're selecting modes. "Half" = takeoff mode, for example. Flaps half on the ground, flaps retract at 250, pitch trim button sets takeoff trim. "Full" = landing mode; flaps extend at 250 and pitch trim button dials in AoA. I don't think the Hornet has a pitch trim control in any traditional sense. In free flight, it trims itself. I think it does that on takeoff and landing too, just not very well. Meaning, you have to use pressure on the stick to maintain level flight above a certain air speed.

 

Let's say you drop your landing gear and set flaps to full at 250kts. You're going too fast for the auto-trim, the nose wants to rise and you can't fix that with the trim button, you need to use forward stick pressure to maintain level flight. As you pass through about 180, the trim button starts to work. As you go slower and slower, you now need back pressure on the stick to maintain level flight. Now your trim button has some authority, you can use it to relieve pressure on the stick.

 

Problem is, now you're flying around at a high AoA. You have a ton of drag, so now you need a ton of throttle to overcome that drag if you want to keep flying.

 

The effect of that is, you go from being idle throttle, trying to find some way to get the jet to slow down. All of a sudden you need at least half and maybe closer to 3/4 throttle, trying to find some way to keep the jet in the air. You have to do three things at once:

 

1. Go from stick forward to stick back

2. Mess around with the trim

3. Go from idle throttle to 3/4 throttle

 

All three have to be precise, with the hard part being the throttle. If you don't give it quite enough throttle, the aircraft sinks rapidly (some say too rapidly, I wouldn't know, never flew a real Hornet). If you give it too much throttle, and speed up, your nose climbs.

 

If you come from a general aviation background, either in sims or r/l, you get this pounded into your head: don't fly on the wrong side of the power curve. Don't fly down there where you need almost full throttle to maintain level flight. Main reason for that is, you don't have any way of knowing what your AoA is, no idea how close you are to a stall. If you run out of throttle, there's a tendency to want to yank back on the stick, and after a certain point, if you do that you aren't flying any more. But, I guess that's how you do it in the Hornet. Good news is, you know what your AoA is, so you won't be flying that close to the edge of disaster. And the aircraft will trim itself to a given AoA (up to a point) so if you're Johnny-on-the-spot with the throttle, you can keep the thing under control. Just gotta have control over the throttle.

 

It's a great system actually, it seems magic to me. The beauty of it is, once you get it set up right, of all the things you have to mess with, you don't have to fiddle with trim. I find it amazing the way you can dial in an AoA regardless of what you're doing with the throttle. The only price you pay is that brief moment of thrashing around as you're transitioning between 250 and 160kts. I don't think there's an easy way to fix that. You just have to train your left hand to be where it needs to be without having to re-invent the wheel every time you land.

 

Try this. RCTL+ENTER. That'll give you a visual cue as to throttle position. See if that doesn't help

 

That made a lot of sense and it helped me immensely. Superb stuff.

 

Thanks for taking the time to put that together. Much appreciated.

 

I'm back doing it :)

[DutchCoolHand]

If you come from a general aviation background, either in sims or r/l, you get this pounded into your head: don't fly on the wrong side of the power curve. Don't fly down there where you need almost full throttle to maintain level flight. Main reason for that is, you don't have any way of knowing what your AoA is, no idea how close you are to a stall. If you run out of throttle, there's a tendency to want to yank back on the stick, and after a certain point, if you do that you aren't flying any more. But, I guess that's how you do it in the Hornet. Good news is, you know what your AoA is, so you won't be flying that close to the edge of disaster. And the aircraft will trim itself to a given AoA (up to a point) so if you're Johnny-on-the-spot with the throttle, you can keep the thing under control. Just gotta have control over the throttle.

 

It's a great system actually, it seems magic to me. The beauty of it is, once you get it set up right, of all the things you have to mess with, you don't have to fiddle with trim. I find it amazing the way you can dial in an AoA regardless of what you're doing with the throttle. The only price you pay is that brief moment of thrashing around as you're transitioning between 250 and 160kts. I don't think there's an easy way to fix that. You just have to train your left hand to be where it needs to be without having to re-invent the wheel every time you land.

 

Try this. RCTL+ENTER. That'll give you a visual cue as to throttle position. See if that doesn't help

 

I fully understand what you are saying as a pilot in real life. I just noticed the difference right away after the patch. the nose drops in level flight

[donkeyrider]

I find what helps is delaying setting Flaps tp FULL until the IAS is around 180-200kts. Not sure if this is how it is done in R/L but the plane is more stable. I have to admit I haven't flown since the latest patch.

[TheD3vil]

I've always had issues with the aircraft pitching up strong on gear down/flaps down a little under 250 kts. It sort of perplexed me because when you watch Wags do his airfield pattern landing video, gear down and flaps down doesn't so much as make the aircraft hiccup. In any case, this has been caused about here as well, FYI.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=214398

[CBStu]

I have been doing a ton of straight-in carrier approaches using the instant action and a similar mission I created. Plane starts at about 350. I chop the throttle and yank back on the stick and release it. As it is slowing I set ILS and TACAN and keep my eye on the speed. A little under 250 I drop hook and gear, at about 200 I drop half flaps and it really starts slowing. About 170 I drop full flaps. I sometimes start cranking in some up trim. At about 150 I start bringing in the throttle and more up trim while watching the E bracket. Getting the throttle right is hard to do but I am trying to let the speed drop to about 130-135 but no lower or plane drops like a rock. The AOA light is OK but the E bracket is a lot more useful to me. Once I get it stable at 135 or so w/ everything full down, pitch trim adjustment gets the E bracket centered, and throttle gets me on the glide slope. Problem is the 100 tiny throttle adjustments needed to keep it on slope. But that is why this is a fun challenge.

[Mule]

I have been doing a ton of straight-in carrier approaches using the instant action and a similar mission I created. Plane starts at about 350. I chop the throttle and yank back on the stick and release it. As it is slowing I set ILS and TACAN and keep my eye on the speed. A little under 250 I drop hook and gear, at about 200 I drop half flaps and it really starts slowing. About 170 I drop full flaps. I sometimes start cranking in some up trim. At about 150 I start bringing in the throttle and more up trim while watching the E bracket. Getting the throttle right is hard to do but I am trying to let the speed drop to about 130-135 but no lower or plane drops like a rock. The AOA light is OK but the E bracket is a lot more useful to me. Once I get it stable at 135 or so w/ everything full down, pitch trim adjustment gets the E bracket centered, and throttle gets me on the glide slope. Problem is the 100 tiny throttle adjustments needed to keep it on slope. But that is why this is a fun challenge.

 

It really is a lot of fun I agree.

 

One of the best things I like about DCS is Case 1 Recovery.

 

Lowering the flap at a much slower speed was key for me and I can now get on speed a lot easier than before thanks to the advice given in this thread.

[DeltaMike]

I find what helps is delaying setting Flaps tp FULL until the IAS is around 180-200kts. Not sure if this is how it is done in R/L but the plane is more stable. I have to admit I haven't flown since the latest patch.

 

Yeah. My only thing is, if I wait until I'm going slow enough to take care of the trim problem I'm pretty late in the downwind and don't have much time to get stable. Not saying you're wrong, just because I'm used to flying the thing ***-backwards doesn't mean I'm doing it the right way...

Edited March 30, 2019 by DeltaMike

[VFA41_Lion]

I usually drop gear at 250kts, half-flaps at 200 kts, and full flaps at 150 kts. Start trimming for on-speed between 200/150 kts and it will keep it

[Deano87]

Guys just make your life simpler and drop gear and full flap in one go (don’t stop at half flap) 90 degrees into the break turn at 250~ knots. Being in a turn greatly reduces the ballooning effect and by the time you complete the last 90 degrees you should be slowed down enough to get your trimming action going. Getting ready with the throttle to catch the deceleration ofcourse.

 

There’s really no point in going to half flap then full flap, the jet will only give you the amount of flap that’s safe and all you’re doing is creating two upset points during the approach where you need to counteract the jets changing configuration. You want to get fully configured as early and as quickly as possible so that you have less things changing later on in the approach.

[donkeyrider]

Yeah. My only thing is, if I wait until I'm going slow enough to take care of the trim problem I'm pretty late in the downwind and don't have much time to get stable. Not saying you're wrong, just because I'm used to flying the thing ***-backwards doesn't mean I'm doing it the right way...

 

DeltaMike,

 

I'm definitely not doing it right! But it's my sim and I'll fly it anyway I want :lol:

[CBStu]

Guys just make your life simpler and drop gear and full flap in one go (don’t stop at half flap) 90 degrees into the break turn at 250~ knots. Being in a turn greatly reduces the ballooning effect and by the time you complete the last 90 degrees you should be slowed down enough to get your trimming action going. Getting ready with the throttle to catch the deceleration of course.

 

There’s really no point in going to half flap then full flap, the jet will only give you the amount of flap that’s safe and all you’re doing is creating two upset points during the approach where you need to counteract the jets changing configuration. You want to get fully configured as early and as quickly as possible so that you have less things changing later on in the approach.

I have tried this and doing it while in the 30 deg bank definitely reduces the ballooning problem. The rest of the pattern I suck at though. I usually do a pattern when I do a bolter figuring what have I to lose? Proper carrier traps are a long, frustrating, learning curve but they do slowly but surely get better.

[Deano87]

I have tried this and doing it while in the 30 deg bank definitely reduces the ballooning problem. The rest of the pattern I suck at though. I usually do a pattern when I do a bolter figuring what have I to lose? Proper carrier traps are a long, frustrating, learning curve but they do slowly but surely get better.

 

The initlal break into the pattern doesn’t need to be 30 degrees of bank. Remember you’re trying to bleed off speed. I’m much closer to 90 degrees of bank, specially for the first 90 degrees of the turn. Once I’ve got to 250knots then gear and full flap goes down, roll out on the downwind abeam the carrier at about 1.2miles according to Tacan. Fully configured. Slow to onspeed while maintaining 600ft and then just as the back of the carrier hits the nose of the wingtip missile start your 30 degree bank turn, look for 500ft alt after the first 90 degrees of turn. If you need more time on the downwind for getting trimmed and configured then just extend your initial upwind flyover of the carrier before you break. Break beyond the bow, or even further depending on how much time it takes you to get sorted on your downwind. That’s just how I do it anyway.

[DeltaMike]

I have tried this and doing it while in the 30 deg bank definitely reduces the ballooning problem. The rest of the pattern I suck at though. I usually do a pattern when I do a bolter figuring what have I to lose? Proper carrier traps are a long, frustrating, learning curve but they do slowly but surely get better.

 

If you have ILS on, you can see where you're at altitude-wise on base, which I think helps a lot.

 

[CBStu]

Deano, that is helpful. just in the last week I figured out how to use the tacan to verify distance to the carrier. And, yeah, I do extend the down wind for sure. Mainly because I am never at the proper spot coming out of the second 180 so that gives me room to adjust. Question for you and Delta after watching that video. The pattern layout I got from one of the training videos shows going past the boat at 250. Deano I take it you are over that by a bunch and the RL pilot in the video was at 350(?). I do have the ILS running, but since I am so far behind the boat I am always way low. I think I will try extending my upwind leg some. That will give a longer downwind to get settled but not have me so far behind the boat after the second 180 turn. Thanks your help guys.

[Deano87]

Yeah I'm usually around 350 at the break at around 800 ft.

 

ILS definitely helps give you an idea of where you are, but remember if you're extending the downwind too much then the ILS will tell you that you are way under the glideslope as you roll out into the groove as you'll be further downwind then expected, also the further downwind you are the wider you'll need to make your last 180 to come right far enough for the angled deck.

 

Honestly if you need more time then extend the upwind leg not the downwind leg. Resist the temptation to do long downwinds, you need to get used to making your last 180 at a point where it results in you rolling out into the groove just over 3/4 mile away from the end of the boat at about 300ft. Shooting bolters over and over again until you find a reference or a picture out the window before last 180 turn that works for you is the key. Once you know what you're looking for, where the carrier should be, how far away, at what angle etc then the rest falls into place pretty easy.

 

It's all just stick time.

[DeltaMike]

Good stuff Deano.

 

One big problem I had at first was getting the right distance from the carrier, focusing too much on bank angle and G's and not focusing enough on where I'm at. People tend to snicker at ya if you use your air brake, but I think it can help sometimes, especially when you're learning. Question is, when are you in the groove, at what point do you say it's all over but the singing part? When I first started I never knew I was in the groove until I hit the deck, after that I was focused on trying to get stable on final. Now I'm focused on being precisely where I need to be as I turn base. My goal eventually is to feel that way right before the break. But, where I'm at right now is, rolling out on the downwind at a certain point, at a certain speed, give myself a couple of seconds to take a breath before I turn base. I use the airbrake when I have to