Valve Index - new HMD in May

[wormeaten]

Yes but Pimax uses larger panels. The index is using the same size panels as the vive pro you are just wasting less screen because you are closer to the lenses. It also kanted the lenses outwards.

The index is using new Valve patented dual lenses which allegedly significantly increasing clarity and FOV. Similar to Star VR and XTAL who create special lenses for their product and are the essence for it what gives them an advantage.

Pimax actually is a plagiarism of the, I think old Panasonic attempt for wide FOV VR and in essence is melting two standard lenses to reach that FOV, the reason for the high need to compensation for distortion.

Edited May 14, 2019 by wormeaten

[etherbattx]

so much unknown about these headsets and yet we know so much!

 

anyone want to pick my next stock purchase?

[p1t1o]

so much unknown about these headsets and yet we know so much!

 

anyone want to pick my next stock purchase?

 

lol maybe we can form a consortium where we each agree to get a different headset, share reviews and then all (except one lucky fellow) refund and purchase the winner?

 

:pilotfly::pilotfly::pilotfly::pilotfly::pilotfly:

[dburne]

Well I decided on the Rift S some time ago and have on pre-order, figure I will be enjoying it for months before any of these others actually get into the mainstream VR market.

 

:D

[twistking]

I am surprised that the Index does not get more credit for its high refresh rate:

 

Of course i am just guessing here, but with the Index running happily at 120hz, you might get very good results with Motion Smoothing (ASW) and putting out only 60 fps.

 

I understand that native framerate would be even better, but from my limited experience with the Rift getting stable 45fps + ASW feels "good enough" most of the time.

But my point is, that with Index you would still get 60 "real" frames which is 1.333 times the temporal resoulution of the Rifts 45 fps, so you would get 1.3 times the temporal stability from that, BUT additionaly you should get less artifacting from the Motion Smoothing/ASW process, since there is less temporal prediction (the guessed frame is temporarily closer to the previously rendered one).

 

I understand that this would only hold true, if Valves Motion Smoothing process was as sophisticated as its Oculus counterpart (since this should be the best at the moment, at least on paper with Oculus ASW 2.0 ...).

However it's reasonable to assume, that Valve is also still improving its Motion Smoothing implementation.

 

With both the higher temporal resoultion and potentially better Smoothing/ASW in mind, i think that 60/120 could be the new gold standard for performance heavy VR titles and even more i would not be surprised, if 60/120 could feel better than true 90 for less demanding titles.

Your answer is in your question.

Most people struggle to get 45fps in DCS.

Index will boost the resolution and also slightly the Gov, you will be lucky to maintain 45fps. Not sure ED optimisation will allow you to boost resolution, Gov and get to 60fps.

Ok. i did not realize, that hitting 45 was still a challenge, as i did not make the the jump to vr myself, but only tested it on a friends pc.

But as you say, the vr optimizations that are coming from ED should make it possible to go from "struggling with 45" to stable 60 and with that enable 60/120.

Has anyone compared Valves Motion Smotthing to Oculus ASW? Is it similar, or is one implementation better than the other?

I would assume, that ASW with the the new ASW 2.0 update is better, but i only tested dcs with the "old" ASW 1.0, which i found to be good already, if it wasn't for some problems, like f.e. the propellers of some warbirds...

[dburne]

Ok. i did not realize, that hitting 45 was still a challenge, as i did not make the the jump to vr myself, but only tested it on a friends pc.

But as you say, the vr optimizations that are coming from ED should make it possible to go from "struggling with 45" to stable 60 and with that enable 60/120.

Has anyone compared Valves Motion Smotthing to Oculus ASW? Is it similar, or is one implementation better than the other?

I would assume, that ASW with the the new ASW 2.0 update is better, but i only tested dcs with the "old" ASW 1.0, which i found to be good already, if it wasn't for some problems, like f.e. the propellers of some warbirds...

 

DCS does not currently support ASW2 for the Rift.

You can check if a game does or not:

In game press Oculus button to bring up Dash panel, if game image remains in display it does support ASW2, if it fades to gray it does not.

[Harlikwin]

Ok. i did not realize, that hitting 45 was still a challenge, as i did not make the the jump to vr myself, but only tested it on a friends pc.

But as you say, the vr optimizations that are coming from ED should make it possible to go from "struggling with 45" to stable 60 and with that enable 60/120.

 

Honestly I don't think most VR guys are gonna go from 45 to 60. At least with the current implementation of Occulus you are either at 45 or 90 IF your system can do it (the old disable ASW so you can get intermediate frame rates doesn't seem to work anymore for me). So at best it will be more stable at 45, and you can probably turn up some eye candy, or maybe turn it down and try to hit a stable 90. Not sure on steamVR/WMR/pimax though. Honestly stable 45 looks pretty decent most of the time. You do get some double images and ghosting of nearby aircraft zooming past you and thats about it IMO.

[twistking]

Honestly I don't think most VR guys are gonna go from 45 to 60. At least with the current implementation of Occulus you are either at 45 or 90 IF your system can do it (the old disable ASW so you can get intermediate frame rates doesn't seem to work anymore for me). ...

Well my whole point was (if you read my previous posts), that with the Valve Index "60 could be the next 45", since the Index can run at 120hz, which can be optained with 60fps + Motion Smoothing.

 

My hope is, that 60fps/120hz feels as good or better than native 80/90 on Oculus Rift/Rift S, while being less demanding.

That's only speculation of course, but i was trying to say, that 60fps/120hz could be the gold standard for temporal resolution in dcs.

 

@dburne: Thanks for the information.

Edited May 14, 2019 by twistking

[Nagilem]

I was lucky enough to get into the preorder. Hopefully I see the headset before the end of June.

[Supmua]

Just wondering, what's the earliest any purchasers here (those who hit the 30 minute window) have for a estimated delivery date of their Index?

I have a reserve, September 30 :huh:.

An NO, I'm not giving it up!! :glare:

(I reserved the full kit)

 

I was within 5 min window (10:05AM PDT purchase, headset + controllers). No specific delivery date yet but probably late June.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Supmua

[Supmua]

Well my whole point was (if you read my previous posts), that with the Valve Index "60 could be the next 45", since the Index can run at 120hz, which can be optained with 60fps + Motion Smoothing.

 

My hope is, that 60fps/120hz feels as good or better than native 80/90 on Oculus Rift/Rift S, while being less demanding.

That's only speculation of course, but i was trying to say, that 60fps/120hz could be the gold standard for temporal resolution in dcs.

 

@dburne: Thanks for the information.

 

My setup can sometimes hit 90 fps when flying high in the sky on the Vive Pro, so I think 60/120 will definitely be doable with the Index--no hope on the ground level fps though (45/90 will be my target). But, yeah, the possibility of 120 fps (double frame/motion smoothing) is something to look forward to if image retention can be minimized via high frame rate + low persistent LCD screen.

[twistking]

My setup can sometimes hit 90 fps when flying high in the sky on the Vive Pro, so I think 60/120 will definitely be doable with the Index--no hope on the ground level fps though (45/90 will be my target).

Maybe the 50% VR performance boost Wags hinted at, would make 60/120 possible even when going low and fast...

 

Right now my biggest concern with the Index and its canted display design is that DCS still lacks support for non planar VR HMDs.

I just learned, that DCS still does not not properly support HMDs with non planar screens, like Pimax and the upcoming Valve Index.

 

I don't own and have not prepurchased one of them, still i'm completely puzzled, as to why there is not much talk about this.

Having the image corrected in post (parallel projection compatibility) has a massive impact on performance and should not be considered as a proper solution.

A proper solution would mean to cater to the perspective within the rendering pipeline, which should have no impact on performance.

 

As long this is not adressed by ED, i don't see the Index to be a viable option for DCS.

[imacken]

My setup can sometimes hit 90 fps when flying high in the sky on the Vive Pro, so I think 60/120 will definitely be doable with the Index--no hope on the ground level fps though (45/90 will be my target). But, yeah, the possibility of 120 fps (double frame/motion smoothing) is something to look forward to if image retention can be minimized via high frame rate + low persistent LCD screen.

 

What are your settings to achieve that kind of fps in DCS on the Vive Pro?

I get 45 as typical, but 30 at ground level. Never ever seen anything approaching 90!

[Supmua]

What are your settings to achieve that kind of fps in DCS on the Vive Pro?

 

I get 45 as typical, but 30 at ground level. Never ever seen anything approaching 90!

 

 

 

I only get 90 when I’m high up in the air with nothing in background, mirrors off. It’s mostly 45 otherwise. I use a toned down high preset with flat shadows, civ off, heat blur off, medium visibility, PD 1.4.

 

I don’t fly in VR as much now as my FPS without VR is twice as high, and with Reshade the image fidelity is just jaw dropping. May be the Index and VR optimization patch will change that, but I’m also waiting for an NVIDIA card with HDMI 2.1 with a large screen 120 Hz OLED TV.

[imacken]

I only get 90 when I’m high up in the air with nothing in background, mirrors off. It’s mostly 45 otherwise. I use a toned down high preset with flat shadows, civ off, heat blur off, medium visibility, PD 1.4.

 

I don’t fly in VR as much now as my FPS without VR is twice as high, and with Reshade the image fidelity is just jaw dropping. May be the Index and VR optimization patch will change that, but I’m also waiting for an NVIDIA card with HDMI 2.1 with a large screen 120 Hz OLED TV.

 

MSAA?

[Panthera_Tigris]

New Review:

 

 

 

 

What do you guys think?

[Supmua]

There are also several extended hands-on and early impressions on several sites such Ars Technica, uploadVR, etc.

 

The positives on FOV and sweet spots are encouraging.

[imacken]

The positives on FOV and sweet spots are encouraging.

 

And the audio, and most importantly, the 120/144 Hz refresh rate!

[sea2sky]

The sweet spot disappoints a bit.

[imacken]

The sweet spot disappoints a bit.

 

I didn't think it was clear what he was meaning. He seemed to suggest that if the headset got moved, he lost the sweet spot. Not sure really. Everyone else has praised the sweet spot, so I think we still have to wait on sim users to get a real feel for how these HMDs perform.

There is a world of difference between playing stuff like Arizona Sunshine compared to DCS!

[imacken]

You cant just drop that in unqualified!!

What have you heard!!?

Hvea you used one!!1?!

 

:lol::lol::unsure::surrender:

 

He is talking about the linked video a few posts up!

[p1t1o]

Who is moving their headset? Youre telling me if something nudged the goggles in use, you wouldnt get freaked like someone tugging on your headphones? Expensive, fragile, super-awesome headphones.

 

 

 

Nah, as long as the sweetspot is easy to find (not having to "finesse" the goggle fit) and that it is "sweet" enough, then its golden.

 

 

As long as...

[sea2sky]

I didn't think it was clear what he was meaning. He seemed to suggest that if the headset got moved, he lost the sweet spot. Not sure really. Everyone else has praised the sweet spot, so I think we still have to wait on sim users to get a real feel for how these HMDs perform.

There is a world of difference between playing stuff like Arizona Sunshine compared to DCS!

 

 

He said it is smaller than Rift S, and felt like gen 1.

[Supmua]

Ars Techinca's one week impression. They went a bit deeper into FOV, subpixels, and sweet spots (page 2)

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/05/one-week-with-the-valve-index-a-vr-game-changer-with-a-few-question-marks/

[nrosko]

He said it is smaller than Rift S, and felt like gen 1.

 

He is talking about position sweetspot. Personally this doesn't bother me at all on the cv1. The fov sweetspot is better than the RiftS and other headsets though, this is more important imo.