AIM120B visual mode cannot track incoming missiles

[Rabbisaur]

Although an idea intercepting an Air to Air missile looks quite possible on the first glance there are so many technical things that make it almost impossible in RL.

 

First would be missile fuze delay, there are well documented cases patriots intercepting SCUDs in Gulf war just to detonate too late to do any damage to it... in the end am not sure that and Air to Air missile would have enough mass to trigger the fuze at all.

 

Second issue would filtering the radar returns. RCS of the Air to Air missile head-on is very small comparing to any AGM. Even if the missile did have the power to detect it, setting a missile seeker to such a low threshold would make the missile chase birds, rainy clouds, ground returns.

 

Third issue would be intercepting such small constantly maneuvering target, there are well documented issues on US Navy having quite a difficult time intercepting ASMs like Kh-31 with dedicated equipment like ASGIS and CWIS.. with Kh-31 being much bigger and predictable target... simply it takes time with the current equipment to build up the picture and figure out what is going on with the target... the time that simplify doesn't exist with head-on shots at such speeds... and here I am not entering even the manoeuvre requirements that would be needed for such intercept

 

Not to go even deeper, even if possible it would be highly impracticable since such a shot would have a very small odds of being successful, while a manoeuvre of turning you aircraft into an incoming missile would maximize the doppler returns and reduce the intercepting time that would increase its Pk of you by a huge degree

 

The system you mentioned are all older than ARMAAM. And there is little value to compare game mechanism with RL. And you didn't provide any evidence regarding ARMAAM at all.

 

I would like to reiterate: AIM120s on F15 behaves differently than then same AIM120s on F18. They cannot be both correct. I hope the dev team can look into it. I accept any game rule the developers want for their game. And there is little added value if we continue the discussion of real life weapon system newer than 80s. Everything should be deviated from modern RL counterpart intentionally for very good reasons.

[GGTharos]

It's different for other missiles as well. In this case, it's all WIP.

[Dagger71]

I would like to reiterate: AIM120s on F15 behaves differently than then same AIM120s on F18.

 

 

Which AIM120 can lock on and shoot another A2A missile? F15 or F18?

 

 

 

I had no idea and never heard of any A2A would track and hit another A2A in game (IRL it doesn't happen)

[Oceandar]

I've shot anti radar missiles launched from su-25 in F-15 with Amraams. At first I thought they were incoming bandits and they all met their targets. I don't think you can do it in "maddog" but I'm quite sure if you can catch it on your radar then you can shoot it. Same with Su-27 with EOS. My recent tragedy was last night in BF server when I mistakenly shot an Amraam instead of the bandit then eat the second amraam in the face.

You could also find in youtube video where someone kill SA-10 missiles with bunch of aim-9x. Shooting down Phoenix missiles also doable both with EOS mode and aim-9x. Don't trust me? Just try it

 

Cheers

Edited May 2, 2019 by Oceandar

[Emmy]

Saw an AI A-10C shoot an AIM-9 from an AI Iranian F-5 with an AIM-9 earlier tonight.

 

Probably a fluke. Never seen it before.

[FoxAlfa]

The system you mentioned are all older than ARMAAM. And there is little value to compare game mechanism with RL. And you didn't provide any evidence regarding ARMAAM at all.

 

I would like to reiterate: AIM120s on F15 behaves differently than then same AIM120s on F18. They cannot be both correct. I hope the dev team can look into it. I accept any game rule the developers want for their game. And there is little added value if we continue the discussion of real life weapon system newer than 80s. Everything should be deviated from modern RL counterpart intentionally for very good reasons.

 

Ok, since you wish to disregard all the current tech limitations...like spectral analysis... lets talk tactics.

 

When engaging an enemy that fires a missile at me do I want the my counter missle to go for the incoming missile or the enemy fighter?

 

And the answer is quite oblivious... it should Allways go for the enemy fighter.

 

Why? Since I want to get him to go defensive, drop a lock and worry about my missile and possibly shot him down. I can defend his missile in other ways, CMs, notching, jamming, out running, manvering, terrain...

 

if it went for the missile all he would have to do it launch two missles in quick succession (preferred soviet tactic from the 50's till now btw) all my missiles would go for the first enemy missile, and the second enemy missile would have a best possible target it can get, head-on with high doppler return with a plus of enemy jet free to maneuver for the follow up shot...

 

To conclude even if possible it would be a quite limiting factor and would make actual reduce the usability of the Amram by a lot.

 

In the end I see more the case to engeenire against such a case then for it

Edited May 2, 2019 by FoxAlfa

[Pikey]

You can track via radar and fire at Silkworms with Amraam, although getting the intercept right is quite hard and very much about being int he right place at the right time.

 

 

I don't think this should be put down so easily. There are plenty of fat missiles with reasonably detectable flight profiles in the subsonic range. I'd agree that hitting them might be a different issue, but let's be honest, no reason if the radar can see it, not to have a pop. And additionally, ships can see them, launch and (perhaps too often) hit them too.

 

 

So why the "no" on this?

[Rabbisaur]

Ok, since you wish to disregard all the current tech limitations...like spectral analysis... lets talk tactics.

 

When engaging an enemy that fires a missile at me do I want the my counter missle to go for the incoming missile or the enemy fighter?

 

And the answer is quite oblivious... it should Allways go for the enemy fighter.

 

Why? Since I want to get him to go defensive, drop a lock and worry about my missile and possibly shot him down. I can defend his missile in other ways, CMs, notching, jamming, out running, manvering, terrain...

 

if it went for the missile all he would have to do it launch two missles in quick succession (preferred soviet tactic from the 50's till now btw) all my missiles would go for the first enemy missile, and the second enemy missile would have a best possible target it can get, head-on with high doppler return with a plus of enemy jet free to maneuver for the follow up shot...

 

To conclude even if possible it would be a quite limiting factor and would make actual reduce the usability of the Amram by a lot.

 

In the end I see more the case to engeenire against such a case then for it

 

When the RCS of the enemy fighter is smaller than the incoming missile You stt the target so the missile goes to the enemy fighters. I don’t want to digress anymore. But your question got my interest. Have you ever fight in a situation that a friendly is turning with a bandit and you want to help out. Why your missiles goes to the bandit instead of your friend...

[Rabbisaur]

You can track via radar and fire at Silkworms with Amraam, although getting the intercept right is quite hard and very much about being int he right place at the right time.

 

 

I don't think this should be put down so easily. There are plenty of fat missiles with reasonably detectable flight profiles in the subsonic range. I'd agree that hitting them might be a different issue, but let's be honest, no reason if the radar can see it, not to have a pop. And additionally, ships can see them, launch and (perhaps too often) hit them too.

 

 

So why the "no" on this?

 

Exactly. I agree with you. But still this is the developers’ game. Since both FC3 F15 and F18 are made by ED. And there is this inconsistency in behaviors. I would like to ask them to fix the bug.

 

It requires some gut, timing and positioning to intercept an incoming aim54 anyway. I wouldn’t against any game mechanism that requires skills.

[Keks]

For this kind of gameplay I would suggest ace combat, not dcs. Or provide something that adds any value to your claims. Right now we are on the 12yo feverdream level of credibility.

 

If you want stuff like that I highly suggest to look at missiles able to pull enough g in order to make attempts like this possible.

 

I also suggest you look into how targeting actually works. Just because there is some sort of radiation being picked up does not auto translate into being able to pinpoint a moving target in 3D space.

 

Also the burden of proof is on you# since you came up with this sh!t.

[Dagger71]

For this kind of gameplay I would suggest ace combat, not dcs. Or provide something that adds any value to your claims. Right now we are on the 12yo feverdream level of credibility.

 

If you want stuff like that I highly suggest to look at missiles able to pull enough g in order to make attempts like this possible.

 

I also suggest you look into how targeting actually works. Just because there is some sort of radiation being picked up does not auto translate into being able to pinpoint a moving target in 3D space.

 

Also the burden of proof is on you# since you came up with this sh!t.

 

 

Thank you for one of the only voices of reason in this fantasy thread of nonsense!!!

 

 

Instead we got 3 pages of people arguing back and forth about non existent capabilities!

 

 

 

There is no military doctrine in the world that specifies firing a conventional A2A missile to intercept another. It doesn't EXIST!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Now does the game do strange things? Yes of course... I've had my mirage track radar A2A and A2G missiles over the past couple of years but that does NOT translate to even being remotely effective against other missiles.

 

 

 

"It should be able to 100% detect and intercept at least the following: AIM54, R77, R27, AIM7, Big SAMs such as BUK or KUB, and another ARMAAM if you can see it..."

 

 

No it should NEVER be able to intercept any of these.

 

 

End this thread!!

[draconus]

When the RCS of the enemy fighter is smaller than the incoming missile You stt the target so the missile goes to the enemy fighters. I don’t want to digress anymore. But your question got my interest. Have you ever fight in a situation that a friendly is turning with a bandit and you want to help out. Why your missiles goes to the bandit instead of your friend...

When the RCS of the fighter gets smaller than the missile you're probably dead in a matter of a second.

As for the 'situation' the only safe solution is SARH missile like AIM-7 as you have no control over what active missile will lock on next in case of loosing the first lock, which commonly ends up in a friendly fire.

[GGTharos]

There's a lot of talk going around in this thread regarding a subject that's basically done now.

 

 

The issue is that the behavior of a launched 120 is different from an F-18 to an F-15.

[Fri13]

Which AIM120 can lock on and shoot another A2A missile? F15 or F18?

 

 

 

I had no idea and never heard of any A2A would track and hit another A2A in game (IRL it doesn't happen)

 

I do that continually with F-18 against any missile really. Challenge is to spot missile and then you have about 1-2 second window for aim and launch.

 

You fly straight at the missile and a have a 100% intercept chance. Risk is if there is coming a another missile that you don't have time to turn on it after launch or the fighter is behind missile and you shoot at it instead missile.

 

My record is Max AIM-9X load to waste same count of AIM-120C's.

[Dagger71]

I do that continually with F-18 against any missile really. Challenge is to spot missile and then you have about 1-2 second window for aim and launch.

 

You fly straight at the missile and a have a 100% intercept chance. Risk is if there is coming a another missile that you don't have time to turn on it after launch or the fighter is behind missile and you shoot at it instead missile.

 

My record is Max AIM-9X load to waste same count of AIM-120C's.

 

 

100% chance of intercept?? Nobody I know who flies the F18 has heard of this. Do you have any tracks to prove this 100% chance against any missile claim???

[Fri13]

100% chance of intercept?? Nobody I know who flies the F18 has heard of this. Do you have any tracks to prove this 100% chance against any missile claim???

 

Yes, the AIM-9X has so far had a 100% intercept capability against any A/A missile from AIM-9M to AIM-54C. Including AIM-7M, AIM-120C etc.

This is with 6x AIM-120C and 6x AIM-9X against

3x F-15C (first has 2x AIM-7M + 2x AIM-9M, next two has 2x AIM-120C + 2x AIM-9M)

1x F-14B (2x AIM-54C).

 

Even launching it at higher angle against flanking missile you will have perfect intercept change.

 

 

Something nice you can do with a JHMS when you need to start maneuver to different directions than the missiles is coming at you.

Possibility for you to save yourself against the off-axis AIM-9 shots that enemy wingman manages to throw at you while you are after the lead.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Fri13

[Rabbisaur]

Thank you for your track.

 

I wouldn't even bother to make a track or video for those people baby-crying hard "no" and "close the thread" or even a blatant 'shit'. They don't have any basic respect to other people so they are deserved to be treated as animals and completely ignored. At least they are so ignorant to this game thus should not be considered experienced enough to provide any useful feedback.

 

I would not like to close the thread.

 

I created this thread not to advocate this is something to do in real life. There is usually a difference in real life between something that is possible and something that is safe to do. I only wish to ask the developer of this difference in behavior of 120s on F18 and 120s in F15 in DCS, the game.

 

Which one is good which one is wrong? Could the developers please fix the wrong one. Thank you so much!

 

We should of course be able to do whatever is possible to do in a game. We are not going to risk anyone's life if we mass up.

[Fri13]

When the RCS of the fighter gets smaller than the missile you're probably dead in a matter of a second.

As for the 'situation' the only safe solution is SARH missile like AIM-7 as you have no control over what active missile will lock on next in case of loosing the first lock, which commonly ends up in a friendly fire.

 

You don't have great control of the SARH either when your radar is illuminating all in the area, in a large FOV.

 

Again, missiles typically go after largest return, and mainly try to follow a return that has logical speed, distance and direction as track would suggest.

 

But having a friend anywhere near your radar beam and missile heading, can trigger missile get countered or swap targets.

 

The missile doesn't know is it fooled or is it tracking friendly or anything. Same thing with IR missiles. You just don't use those where friend is 15-20° from the target or its flightpath.

 

That is one reason why Tunguska is so effective SAM as none that is affecting its launch parameters. Optically aimed, launched and guided via remote radio signal and shooter task is to track target visually.

No false echoes, no false emissions etc. Just keep LOS clear.

[draconus]

But having a friend anywhere near your radar beam and missile heading, can trigger missile get countered or swap targets.

But can it in DCS?

[Fri13]

But can it in DCS?

 

AFAIK No.

 

The radar is very simple in DCS. The F/A-18C has the first more advanced radar simulation where there is actual radar main beam scanning the proportion of the frontal area, so unless that beam zone hits you, it shouldn't see you. With others it might be just the common ID check for range and attitude and then throw sum numbers to tell does the radar see it or not.