F-18 vs. A-10 Cluster bombs

[Harlikwin]

The level of munchkinsm of having the plane with all the super-weapons in some of these threads is kind of amazing.

 

I do think that some CM munitions are undermodled though, when it comes to things like soft targets. Or the "psychological impact of having CM's dropped on you". Then again my favorite CM is the BK90...

[M1Combat]

This is why I feel the A-10C is the best in DCS regarding moving mud. The A-G configuration is unmatchable IMO. It's just too damn slow for me.

 

Except the BlackShark…

 

But it's even slower :)

[ac5]

Well, what is even slower is the speed at they are updating it....

[derammo]

Not sure if I posted this here already, but here are some videos of AI pilots with F/A-18C and A-10C delivering cluster bombs of different types. Like already explained above, the payload of even the dumb cluster bomb from the A-10C is far greater, and the smart cluster bomb is just hilarious to watch.

 

 

This runway is filled from end to end with mortars, which are the weakest exploding unit I could find (life = 0.1). These will show any hit as an explosion. There are a variety of armored units spread out along the runway, which are the larger dark shapes.

All weapons are delivered by Excellent AI using the same program, which is 5 separate bombing actions in one pass, delivered from 5000ft. The F/A-18 is traveling at 500kts, while the A-10C is travelling at 240kts.

[Robin_Hood]

An important thing to remember with the MK-20 and CBU-99 is their HoF is fixed at 1500ft. The HT setting in stores management only purpose is to set the DUD cue. It has nothing to do with the HoF. So when you set up your Rockeyes, you need to always set your DUD queue to 1500.

 

Yes, indeed. Although by testing all combinations I found that you actually have two pilot options for the CBU-99 (and Mk 20) weaponeering.

 

Primary mode

Selected by MFUZ in VT. The canister will open at 1500 ft (actually from my tests, it will open 1.2 seconds after passing 1500 ; actual opening height will depend on the vertical velocity of the canister, and thus on the dive angle, altitude and airspeed at release).

There is no backup mode apparently. If released below 1500 ft, the canister will never open (IRL there should be a 300 ft opening backup).

 

Option mode

Selected by MFUZ in OFF, or PRI (anything but VT). The canister will open 1.2 secondes after release.

 

Notes

- in all cases, EFUZ has to be on INST or DLY1

- the behaviour seems to model a FMU-140 fuze, although 3D models show an Mk 339

- this is the behaviour on the Hornet, other DCS modules have different behaviour

- the height (HOF) for the primary mode is set on the ground ; in DCS it is fixed at 1500, as mentionned earlier

[ac5]

Not sure if I posted this here already, but here are some videos of AI pilots with F/A-18C and A-10C delivering cluster bombs of different types. Like already explained above, the payload of even the dumb cluster bomb from the A-10C is far greater, and the smart cluster bomb is just hilarious to watch.

 

 

Very interesting, thanks!

[Zergburger]

excluding SFWs like cbu-97. cluster bombs are still devastating weapons IRL, just google some vids.

 

the rockeye and CBU-87 should certainly be able to defeat most armor, and definitely defeat softer targets like SAM TELs and radars.

With the JSOW-A coming shortly i would truely appreciate the devs looking into why conventional cluster bombs are so weak.

[Harker]

excluding SFWs like cbu-97. cluster bombs are still devastating weapons IRL, just google some vids.

 

the rockeye and CBU-87 should certainly be able to defeat most armor, and definitely defeat softer targets like SAM TELs and radars.

With the JSOW-A coming shortly i would truely appreciate the devs looking into why conventional cluster bombs are so weak.

The reason why they're so weak has to do with how explosions are modeled in DCS. Currently, all explosions are too weak and localized, with the blast wave and shrapnel effects not really taken into account.

[Hog_No32]

I‘ve found the Mk20 Rockeye on the Hornet rather „ok“ when used delivered accurately (...not saying I always do). When I drop two of them with an interval of 250-350m against a few SAM sites I often was able to completely destroy 2 TELs and sometimes the radar as well.

 

I figured they are significantly more effective when dropped in intervals where the patterns of the canisters overlap to a certain degree. Obviously it becomes even better if you drop them as a pair (MULT 2) where the double amount of bomblets cover the same area. I prefer the interval option though since that provides an adjustable balance between bomblet density and the covered area in total.

 

A single Mk20 or CBU-99 alone really is not too effective at the moment. Sure I have no clue whatsoever how this compares to reality. But yeah, the lack of a fragmentation damage model in DCS currently makes it probably less effective compared to RL. Especially when your objective is not necessarily a total destruction of an enemy unit but maybe an „m-kill“ (mobility kill, i.e. knocking off one of the tracks of a tank) is what you want to achieve. That is where shrapnels are useful but their effect on targets is currently not modelled I think.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Hog_No32

[Eldur]

All this talk about the effectiveness comparison and then it's always the CBU-97 with it's retarded skeets going off directly at the actual target(s). Haven't flown the Hog in a long time, but back in the day even the CBU-87 were more effective than the Rockeyes, IIRC. And we'll be getting those submunitions soon with the A model JSOW. My hopes are we don't have to put multiple of those on an unarmored target to ensure a kill, but I'm confident in the first place

 

 

 

Well, what is even slower is the speed at they are updating it....

 

 

Gave me a good laugh

 

 

I'm glad though they finally do update the Shark and probably they'll be seeing the A-10C through as well after that, especially since at least a cockpit update is mandatory since 2.5.

 

 

 

Primary mode

There is no backup mode apparently. If released below 1500 ft, the canister will never open (IRL there should be a 300 ft opening backup).

 

Option mode

Selected by MFUZ in OFF, or PRI (anything but VT). The canister will open 1.2 secondes after release.

 

Notes

- the height (HOF) for the primary mode is set on the ground ; in DCS it is fixed at 1500, as mentionned earlier

 

 

 

Some interesting points. Didn't know about the off/pri thing. Could be useful in low level engagements though, gonna try that out

 

 

I wish we'd get the option to set the HoB rather sooner than later in the ME and, more importantly, via the kneeboard while being static on the ground

 

 

 

But yeah, the lack of a fragmentation damage model in DCS currently makes it probably less effective compared to RL. Especially when your objective is not necessarily a total destruction of an enemy unit but maybe an „m-kill“ (mobility kill, i.e. knocking off one of the tracks of a tank) is what you want to achieve. That is where shrapnels are useful but their effect on targets is currently not modelled I think.

 

 

 

This sure is a point there. DCS at the moment has just some stages of damage (like "won't shoot anymore" or "starts burning and dies later on") dependant on how much is left of the life bar.

[derammo]

If you look at the way the weapons are defined (in the respective LUA files) you can see the CBU-87 has more explosive power than the CBU-99 and the Rockeye. This obviously matches the real world data You can also see the number of submunitions that are modeled for each. The CBU-99 and Rockeye are identical except for a probable copy/paste error in the aerodynamic model (I posted this i the Object Errors forum, but there was no response).

 

Like others have said above, it seems like only direct hits from submunitions count for damage, so it matters very much how accurate your delivery is. For example, if you are using CCIP, it is predicting the trajectory of the dispenser until 1500ft, and then.... something? That last 1500ft of travel of the submunitions is going to depend a lot on your flying. I am not sure if the CCIP just pretends that the dispenser is a normal bomb hitting the ground or if there is some model of what is probably going to happen with the submunitions. But I do know that when I fly the steep and fast profile (25+ degreees down at 500kts) I get much better results with the Rockeyes than I do from more level profiles. Specifically, if you can see armor (either because of dot labels or because you are better at it than me) you can CCIP multiple targets in one run, using the Rockeye like a sort of "shotgun blast" to kill each target. Still easier than using Mk82s, even though you don't get many secondary kills. I did not test what happens if you hit closely packed armor, because that doesn't seem to happen in the missions I play online, so it did not matter to me.

 

[edit: didn't do a good job explaining why I am saying this, but this was supposed to be a response to using the "interval spacing" to drop multiple bombs. I found I got better results manually triggering multiple bombs in CCIP, trying to actively target the units with each bomb, rather than just spreading them out. In other words, just using them like regular bombs that are a little forgiving, instead of proper cluster bombs that cover an area.]

Edited June 5, 2019 by derammo