F/A-18C: Australia 'cracked US codes'

[Mugatu]

Anyone know what "codes" the article is referring too? NCTR?

 

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22451478-2,00.html

[VMFA117_Poko]

It's crazy that australian Hornets couldn't identify most potentially hostile aircraft in the region. After no answer from US side it's good RAAF finally cracked those radar codes. Nice knowledge they got.

[Pilotasso]

Actualy all teen F have RWR recording mode. I.e you get spiked once, you get the opsositions signature. I dont see how the aussies would crack the code just for that. Doesnt make sense.

[Mugatu]

I don't think it's RWR, it's more likely the NCTR modes of a radar.

 

Actualy all teen F have RWR recording mode. I.e you get spiked once, you get the opsositions signature. I dont see how the aussies would crack the code just for that. Doesnt make sense.

[GGTharos]

Yep, it does sound like NCTR ... though you have to wonder, perhaps those hornets also happen to have a recording mode for a tracked target ... just for that.

[TorwaK]

Interesting, actually there must be a sales agreement between both countries that buyer can't modify the planes etc.

[tflash]

This is mostly the case; it is also the case for the JSF, where a lot more sensitive technology is involved.

[TucksonSonny]

Interesting, actually there must be a sales agreement between both countries that buyer can't modify the planes etc.

 

 

The only problem I see is that you would lose the support contract (warranty) if you would modify stuff.

Of course I guess:

It is forbidden to use reverse engineering…

It is forbidden to make copies of the manuals or publish them…

[TorwaK]

It is forbidden to use reverse engineering…

 

Yes of course, Israel almost put it out all American made avionics from Isreal's F-16 planes than used their own avonics. After that Usa slapped to Israel cause of it. The thing is Israel asks to Usa buy F-22 so much, but because of F-16 avionic case Usa don't wanna sell it them now.

 

Also Israel's Rafael company is sold out valuable F-16 software codes to China than slapped by Usa again. :D

[Aeroscout]

It's times like this that I'm ashamed to be an American...

 

Australia! they should have gotten the codes! what was our gov't thinking!

[SUBS17]

I don't think it's RWR, it's more likely the NCTR modes of a radar.

 

I don't think so, NCTR uses radar returns to identify an aircraft it is not something that would require codes. IFF however does although its near impossible nowadays to crack. RWR is most likely the codes they are talking about since it uses radar reception to identify radars that are scanning the aircraft.(more likely than NCTR)

[GGTharos]

I don't think so, NCTR uses radar returns to identify an aircraft it is not something that would require codes.

 

How do you know that the guy knows what 'codes' mean?

 

IFF however does although its near impossible nowadays to crack.

And you base that assertion on .... what exactly? Nothing, right?

 

RWR is most likely the codes they are talking about since it uses radar reception to identify radars that are scanning the aircraft.(more likely than NCTR)

Nope. They're talking about EID'ing aircraft. They're talking about NCTR more than likely, and perhaps Combat Tree, though I don't see why they'd have to spy on anyone to crack anything to have Combat Tree work.

 

I don't see where you get the idea that a radar signature cannot be a code.

[tflash]

On the other hand, I never heard the F/A-18C's radar was NCTR capable? At least during the gulf war, it was my understanding only the F-15's had that capability?

 

In my view RWR is also a valid candidate.

[GGTharos]

The F/A-18C DOES have NCTR. It lacks an IFF Interrogator however.

[VMFA117_Poko]

For those who don't know what the hell is Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR):

 

"It's the technology, which provides the ability to distinguish more reliably between friendly and hostile aircraft. Much of the NCTR technology is highly "black" and very few details are available, but it reportedly makes it possible to avoid a lot of "friendly fire" accidents, such as the one that resulted in the loss of the IranAir Airbus in July of 1988"

[GGTharos]

The technology isn't 'black' ... there are publicly accessible documents of scientific research concerning this technology available - you just have to find the right journal and pay for the article.

[SUBS17]

How do you know that the guy knows what 'codes' mean?

 

And you base that assertion on .... what exactly? Nothing, right?

 

Nope. They're talking about EID'ing aircraft. They're talking about NCTR more than likely, and perhaps Combat Tree, though I don't see why they'd have to spy on anyone to crack anything to have Combat Tree work.

 

I don't see where you get the idea that a radar signature cannot be a code.

 

Combat tree only worked against earlier Soviet IFF it used the IFF response to id aircraft type. To get combat tree to work they would have most definately had to spy on aircraft and observe their IFF responses and record them then add them to a list for that aircraft type. NCTR uses radar returns from a aircraft to identify it. It has nothing to do with codes but the interpretation of radar reflections to id an aircraft. Western IFF is nearly impossible to crack since it not only involves 5 different modes but also time is a factor as well as position. F/A-18s do not carry combat tree either although it is possible something similar might be out there which is too secret to be found in regular articles. Such a gadget wouldn't surprise me.

[borchi_2b]

well i could not imagine, that the f-18 would not have nctr.

 

well i read something about the israelies.

well that is what they do most of the times.

they got submarines from the germans, the so called u 212a which is called dolphin class, which indicated the isreali once.

they have modified it, with or without agreement of the german government, but i am sure germany never wante the u212a to become a longrange tacktical missile capable sub what it might be now.

 

the same with some vessels, they only bought the fuselage of the ships, everything else was done by israel themselfs.

 

but i like the fact that they will not be able to by the f-22, cause contracts are contracts, and nobody should make an exception cause they are israel.

who know what they would use the f-22 for?

 

ok, enough :-)

 

well the aussies are smart though, but well i guess they will ot buy am fighters so quick again, the germans stped buying am fighters too, and made a fearly good deal with britain, italy and spain.

that does not mean that am fighters are worth nothing. they built good planes but the germans learned from the starfighter missery

[ThrottleMonkey]

Minor point...the Aussies have "A" model Hornets not "C" model.

[Olgerd]

It lacks an IFF Interrogator however.

 

US F/A-18 does not after rescent upgrades (2000 year). Do not know about australian planes though.

[TucksonSonny]

How do you know that the guy knows what 'codes' mean?

 

How do we know what you mean with code?

Code is not always related with digital signals.

Example: AESA radar can switch all the T/R modules by using a code (read algorithm like RSA which is not crackable (not in real time anyway)) and also the frequencies you can change very fast by using a code (this is why it is almost impossible to jam an AESA radar).

You can also encrypt analog signals by using a code (example: you can easily encrypt the (A)DSL-modem signal by using sophisticated codes: RSA 512bits+)

One of the oldest examples of using code was the enigma-mechanical-encrypting machine (encrypting the morse code by using code books) during WWII.