Max1mus Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 (edited) While most people focus on kinematics or chaff rejection when it comes to their missile biases, this topic is different. Its known that R-27ER, especially if not supported correctly, will be spoofed easily with chaff. This is NOT what this post is about The missile seems to have a huge problem with intercepting very fast bandits (mach 1.5+) if they are even slightly suggesting to be flanking. Here is one example: https://i.imgur.com/N5kfSTX.png The missile will, despite being supported while diving and keeping the wings level, pass the aircraft at mach 1.9 (0.5 or so faster than the F-15), but not explode. No chaff was dropped and it did not go for chaff. Another example: http://www.mediafire.com/file/cbykpijdcmpugbe/High_1+%282%29.acmi This tacview shows an ER that does NOT go for chaff or loose lock pass the still hot aircraft despite having over 1 mach more speed. This will happen 100% of the time under these parameters. Giving the missile a PK of 0% against a nonmaneuvering target despite it having the energy to do so under these parameters. This is easily reproducable in single and multiplayer. Is this intended behaviour? Its been an issue for at least months. Edited July 8, 2019 by Max1mus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 I also had such a situation yesterday. ER fired at head on bandit. The bandit (F-15) starts to do a gentle turn with 1.5 to 2.5 g and pulls a max of 3.9 g for a very short moment. Still enough to make the ER that has lots of energy miss. No chaffs + look up against the clear sky. I may as well take R-27Rs, they have the same chance of hitting the bandit (0 %) and they also give the bandit a launch warning, but at least my plane will be lighter and faster with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drona Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Have you guys considered lag? Which server was this on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Just to save you guys approx 25 pages of conversation. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3887106&postcount=263 But I think it would be beneficial if you pushed ED to move up the R-27 family update. ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhunter Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Both the 27's and 77's need updating. I hope this comes soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepin1234 Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Don’t waste your time guys. Is obvious that will remain the same. Go play Cold War 60s... take a research in the forum and you will see. Be smart... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3WA Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Ughh. So MUCH needs to be corrected in this sim. We don't need more planes, we need fixes and corrections to the General World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 I don't think this is an R-27 issue. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Weird, I haven't encountered this. I expect I would have given that I spent a bit of time in a 2 v 4 F-14 vs MiG-29 mission I made. The MiG's were armed with ER's against my 7M's. My wingman would die repeatedly which would often leave me alone against 4 MiG's and I'd usually die to an ER or 73. Does this not impact the AI? Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 The AI doesn't abuse the game in creative ways, rather, it can't learn. The vulnerability is against supersonic aircraft ... think M2KCs getting fast and high and barrel rolling everything under the sun. Any aircraft that can gain enough speed can do it. I imagine the issue is two-fold. One is latency, which is always an issue - the other, I believe the maneuver parameters on the R-27s are still quite low. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 That's one of the things that made me wonder. I was trying to go supersonic to make up for the energy advantage of the ER's over the 7M, yet it didn't grant me invulnerability. I might not have been going fast enough. Anyway there is clearly an issue looking at the link FoxAlfa posted, so you're probably right on why this is happening. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxDollarsAtWork Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 I have been having these same issues as well how long until ED gets the CFD for the R-27 family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawk2174 Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) I know these numbers probably won't be used but I decided to run a CFD run on the AA10A and AA10B. I actually did these quite a few months ago for a missile mod the group I fly with uses but never quite posted them. CD0 - Drag coeficent at 0° alpha - AA-10A CD0 - Drag coeficent at 0° alpha - AA-10B AA-10A Modded DCS VS "That other Sim" AA-10A UnModded DCS VS "That other Sim" Edited July 28, 2019 by nighthawk2174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max1mus Posted August 2, 2019 Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 I know these numbers probably won't be used but I decided to run a CFD run on the AA10A and AA10B. I actually did these quite a few months ago for a missile mod the group I fly with uses but never quite posted them. CD0 - Drag coeficent at 0° alpha - AA-10A CD0 - Drag coeficent at 0° alpha - AA-10B AA-10A Modded DCS VS "That other Sim" AA-10A UnModded DCS VS "That other Sim" This thread is not about kinematics. The issue seems to be fox1 guidance and that for whatever reason at specific ranges the ER refuses to turn onto a target and ends up missing it at very close range (despite clearly having the energy to do it). When it comes to speed and range i find it hard to believe that EDs (apparently based on real RuAf docs) information is inferior to public research based on assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 It actually might have to do with kinematics, just not the ones captured here. The lift coefficients for the R-27s are very low (IIRC), which makes things worse in thinner air. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawk2174 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) ^ this Edited August 2, 2019 by nighthawk2174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepin1234 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 It actually might have to do with kinematics, just not the ones captured here. The lift coefficients for the R-27s are very low (IIRC), which makes things worse in thinner air. can you post your formula to calculate the R-27 lift. Doesn't show to be applied to certain missiles you support in other threads https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3990003&postcount=115 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanir Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 Since I'm a westerner that prefers flying Russian birds for variety, growing up in the cold war made me so familiar with NATO aircraft I just prefer losing myself in Russian ones for a change. But it does really get up my nose how badly the Russian air intercept missiles perform, definitely biased against. As a science enthusiast I just find it academically unsound, personally. The Russians had phased array in a front line fighter type in '91, they're not deficient and are just as capable of reading the same physics books western scientists read. So what gives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunMcKill Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) can you post your formula to calculate the R-27 lift. Doesn't show to be applied to certain missiles you support in other threads https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3990003&postcount=115 Formula: Any_western_thing Pk = any_weight_speed_distance * 100% Russian_BS Pk= (weight + distance / speed) * 0.00 Welcome to DCS! :D Edited August 2, 2019 by JunMcKill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawk2174 Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 @Pepin1234 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 No Pepin, I cannot ... I have an entire sheet of formulas for replicating the (old) behavior in DCS, but in the end they're not THAT important: you need to change the Cy_* values to be larger than they are right now. can you post your formula to calculate the R-27 lift. Doesn't show to be applied to certain missiles you support in other threads https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3990003&postcount=115 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxDollarsAtWork Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 https://streamable.com/elvvg Supersonic or not it seems R-27s need their guidance looked at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oceandar Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 IIRC Chizch said the weapon team will be looking at R-27 guidance just like they did on AIM-7. They're currently busy with hornet and viper weapons. Oh.... well.... Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power. - Lao Tze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhunter Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 To be fair, the real R-27's combat record isn't exactle great. A lot were duds or never hit the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon_S Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 To be fair, the real R-27's combat record isn't exactle great. A lot were duds or never hit the target. Where they are used in real combat, Eritrean-Ethiopian War? If that amount of fired R-27's is enough to say that they are so bad then judging by Yemeni Civil War (2015–present) and Houtis shots they are very nasty ;) Quote Немој ништа силом, узми већи чекић! MSI Tomahawk MAX | Ryzen 7 3700x | 32GB DDR4 3200MHz | RX 5700 XT OC Red Dragon 8GB | VPC Throttle CM3 + VPC Constellation ALPHA on VPC WarBRD Base | HP Reverb G2 Youtube | Follow Me on TWITCH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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