Pulse vs Pulse Doppler

[Ignition]

Is there a benefit from using in medium to close range pulse search vs RWS with the MLC filter off?

 

 

From what I read the only difference is it has the posibility to change the STAB A/C.

 

 

For close range RWS looks like is the best option.

[Braeden108]

RWS is best for long range too. I can't find anything in pulse mode. But when RWS I detect targets fast and far.

[r4y30n]

Asking as a non-RIO, is there a reason you guys don’t use PD search for long range?

[Spiceman]

Oh you do... if you’re out on patrol you want to be in PD Search with a wide scan for the earliest possible detection. You’ll want to switch to RWS when you can, though, to start building SA.

[viper2097]

Is there a benefit from using in medium to close range pulse search vs RWS with the MLC filter off?

 

 

From what I read the only difference is it has the posibility to change the STAB A/C.

 

 

For close range RWS looks like is the best option.

 

Even if the MLC is turned off, there is still the zero doppler filter.

So you won't detect a target that is moving away from you with +/- 100kts.

 

Whtas the "best" is not always a safe answer. it depends a lot on the situation.

There is a real cool chart where all radar modes are summed up, however, I won't post it here cause of forum rules.

 

Personaly:

When doing CAP, i go for RWS with full bars and degrees.

When its getting hot, I go for TWS.

PD-STT or P-STT depends on the situation.

I only change to pulse if I know that he must be there somewhere, but I can't find him in TWS.

 

Pulse is extreme powerrful and awesome to operate, however, due to no filter its also not easy to operate. Especialy under stress.

[Ignition]

Even if the MLC is turned off, there is still the zero doppler filter.

So you won't detect a target that is moving away from you with +/- 100kts.

 

Whtas the "best" is not always a safe answer. it depends a lot on the situation.

There is a real cool chart where all radar modes are summed up, however, I won't post it here cause of forum rules.

 

Personaly:

When doing CAP, i go for RWS with full bars and degrees.

When its getting hot, I go for TWS.

PD-STT or P-STT depends on the situation.

I only change to pulse if I know that he must be there somewhere, but I can't find him in TWS.

 

Pulse is extreme powerrful and awesome to operate, however, due to no filter its also not easy to operate. Especialy under stress.

 

 

Oh yes I forgot about the +-100 knots cold blind spot for doppler.

[Karon]

Don't turn off the MLC unless it's necessary and you know what you are doing. It's a bad habit and later on you'll get tons of false contacts on the TID.

 

 

I usually fly in PD SRC, the progressively switch to more detailed modes as the range decreases. I also check P SRC often, to avoid ZDF and NTCH targets.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I forgot to add, the APX-76 is your best friend :)

Edited August 23, 2019 by Karon

[IronMike]

Pulse STT is the "iron grip" I would say in close ranges. Especially in 1vs1 situations, once you have the guy in PSTT, there is really little what he can do to evade, with TCS on top of it, you have the perfect SA, provided it is a 1 vs 1 ofc, else all other problems that apply to STT in general apply, as in limited SA around your bandit.

 

However imo Pulse Search is not always the best way to get to PSTT, the Pilot Acquisition Modes aside.

 

Pulse Doppler Search gives you the best far picture as it has the longest range. As Spice said, you switch down to RWS to start building SA, then you proceed to TWS to start building track files.

 

Personally when I fly RIO I start using Pulse Search within 40nm to verify if I have to, and if we are sure that we fly against a single bandit and that it does not spook him I might just go the easy way and PDSTT him and then switch to PSTT around 20nm.

 

I did find however that sometimes targets that are below 20nm can be quicker found in pulse search than in any of the other modes - if you know approximately where you are looking at - that is for targets that are just on the edge of PAL range, anything closer in the pilot modes are preferable imo. But funnily enough this applies especially for low targets, if you drop down on their level or below, you will find them.

 

This is also what they did in the 2nd Sidra incident (or was it in both even, I just looked up the 2nd one now), they made sure that they dropped below their targets. It is often described that they did it to use ground clutter against the mig-23s, but I remember recently reading a quote from one of either pilots or RIOs saying that they did it also so their radars could look up (sry I couldnt find the article anymore). The MiGs were at 5000, the Tomcats descended from 20k to 3k. And I found in DCS this maneuver combined with Pulse Search works every well against low flying, notching or maneuvering bandits, too.

 

The Tomcat does thrive at high altitudes and long ranges, but it is not like an Eagle where going low is not the best idea. In the Tomcat going low can be an excellent idea, if you have to, and that is where pulse search comes in very handy imo.

Edited August 24, 2019 by IronMike

[Ignition]

I found pulse search is useful at medium-close range, specially at close range as you said.

Is there a way to know the altitude of the target on the DDD without doing STT? I lose a lot of SA not knowing this because I need to look at the antena elevation to calculate the aprox altitude.

[eatthis]

Heres a scenario i need help with, theres a big target 100 miles away but hes bwaming/notching me, i know where he is but i simply cant get him on radar (multiplayer using jester btw). Whats the fastest way to lock and kill him?

Will pulse mode work that far out? Do i have any options apart from screaming out ahead of him then turning in to defeat the beam/notch? Ps hes at 30k feet so going lower than him isnt a problem

[KlarSnow]

I haven't tried it against anything bigger than a flanker, but a flanker sized target you will see in pulse around 60ish miles away.

 

Even if you can lock him in pulse, you will not be able to guide a phoenix against him, so if you know hes there, just wait in a PD mode until he stops beaming you. Or change your geometry to try and break him out.

[eatthis]

I haven't tried it against anything bigger than a flanker, but a flanker sized target you will see in pulse around 60ish miles away.

 

Even if you can lock him in pulse, you will not be able to guide a phoenix against him, so if you know hes there, just wait in a PD mode until he stops beaming you. Or change your geometry to try and break him out.

 

thats what i did, was hoping for a way to do it faster lol

[Banzaiib]

If pulse STT locks are such an iron grip... and I have certainly seen that if I'm below a bandit, he simply cannot notch me, which is awesome... but, then why do AIM-7's still get notched so easily when guided by PSTT locks?

[near_blind]

If pulse STT locks are such an iron grip... and I have certainly seen that if I'm below a bandit, he simply cannot notch me, which is awesome... but, then why do AIM-7's still get notched so easily when guided by PSTT locks?

 

DCS gives missiles their own doppler gate, it's possible to notch the missile itself.

[Banzaiib]

DCS gives missiles their own doppler gate, it's possible to notch the missile itself.

 

so this means guidance by PSTT locks is not possible (or not actually simulated)? maybe under then new guidance SDK / API?

[near_blind]

so this means guidance by PSTT locks is not possible (or not actually simulated)? maybe under then new guidance SDK / API?

 

That's not what I'm saying. The AIM-7 has its own Doppler notch, if you fly perfectly perpendicular to it while it is above you, it will lose lock regardless of what the emitting radar is doing. I suspect it only takes into account ground speed and aspect which... Isn't exactly right, but hey! DCS.

 

There is a separate debate over whether the CW antenna in the AWG-9 can produce a wave form the -7M can understand, but that's a separate conversation.

[Banzaiib]

That's not what I'm saying. The AIM-7 has its own Doppler notch, if you fly perfectly perpendicular to it while it is above you, it will lose lock regardless of what the emitting radar is doing. I suspect it only takes into account ground speed and aspect which... Isn't exactly right, but hey! DCS.

 

There is a separate debate over whether the CW antenna in the AWG-9 can produce a wave form the -7M can understand, but that's a separate conversation.

 

yes, and that debate aside, lets assume that the -7M can be guided by a CW (PSTT) lock. It would follow that if the AWG-9 STT lock is more resistant to the notch in PSTT, then the AIM-7 should also be much more resistant to the notch if the bandit is above the F-14. Or am I missing something?

 

"Should" being the operative word here. I am aware that once an AIM-7 leaves the F-14, ED's guidance code takes over, and it does not care what radar is illuminating it... it treats them all the same.

[near_blind]

yes, and that debate aside, lets assume that the -7M can be guided by a CW (PSTT) lock. It would follow that if the AWG-9 STT lock is more resistant to the notch in PSTT, then the AIM-7 should also be much more resistant to the notch if the bandit is above the F-14. Or am I missing something?

 

"Should" being the operative word here. I am aware that once an AIM-7 leaves the F-14, ED's guidance code takes over, and it does not care what radar is illuminating it... it treats them all the same.

 

I'm not sure if I explained it properly, but there are two notches here: Your radar and the Sparrow itself. You are correct that by using PSTT, your radar is better able to keep lock of targets with low closure relative to the ground, at least compared to the ground

 

The second notch is the target's closure to the missile relative to the ground. If the target manages to fly perpendicular to the missile, the missile will lose the target in the ground clutter. This will occur independent of which radar mode is guiding it or what platform launched it.

 

You can still have a good lock, with no chaff, and the missile still might go dumb due to the tyranny of geometry.

[Banzaiib]

I'm not sure if I explained it properly, but there are two notches here: Your radar and the Sparrow itself. You are correct that by using PSTT, your radar is better able to keep lock of targets with low closure relative to the ground, at least compared to the ground

 

The second notch is the target's closure to the missile relative to the ground. If the target manages to fly perpendicular to the missile, the missile will lose the target in the ground clutter. This will occur independent of which radar mode is guiding it or what platform launched it.

 

You can still have a good lock, with no chaff, and the missile still might go dumb due to the tyranny of geometry.

 

I 100% understand what you're saying. When guided by a PD lock, yes, the AIM-7 (or any missile) will have its own notch filter, and can be notched independently of the AWG-9 or illuminating radar. But, when guided by a pulse lock, wouldn't it stand to reason that it (the AIM-7) also disables its notch filter? Or at least alters its tracking / guidance model and performance?

 

I guess what I'm saying is, the missile guidance performance does not change with the type of lock in the F-14, and I believe it should.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Banzaiib

[NaCH]

I'm not sure if I explained it properly, but there are two notches here: Your radar and the Sparrow itself. You are correct that by using PSTT, your radar is better able to keep lock of targets with low closure relative to the ground, at least compared to the ground

 

The second notch is the target's closure to the missile relative to the ground. If the target manages to fly perpendicular to the missile, the missile will lose the target in the ground clutter. This will occur independent of which radar mode is guiding it or what platform launched it.

 

You can still have a good lock, with no chaff, and the missile still might go dumb due to the tyranny of geometry.

 

I don't think I agree with this when talking of the AIM-7. Is possible to notch a missle that does not have emission?

 

I would think that what you notch in this case is the radar of the plane that emiting the signal. Being SARH the only thing the missiles needs is guide into the return of the specific radar in the specific band.

Edited January 21, 2020 by NaCH

[IronMike]

I don't think I agree with this when talking of the AIM-7. Is possible to notch a missle that does not have emission?

 

I would think that what you notch in this case is the radar of the plane that emiting the signal. Being SARH the only thing the missiles needs is guide into the return of the specific radar in the specific band.

 

 

 

 

SARH = "Semi active" not "non-active". Which means, ofc you can noth an aim7, as you can notch every missile. An Aim7 would also relock a friendly or any target in the way, if it lost its radar contact in real life, if it is in the general vincinity of the radar target, it would be way less discriminate as it is in DCS. The "fire a sparrow, so it does not accidentally lock a friendly" for example is a total DCS-ism, hence it is easy to have the impression that an aim7s seeker head does not matter. It does, twice in real life, but in DCS as well. Aim7s can relock a target close in in DCS, if radar track is lost.

[near_blind]

I don't think I agree with this when talking of the AIM-7. Is possible to notch a missle that does not have emission?

 

I would think that what you notch in this case is the radar of the plane that emiting the signal. Being SARH the only thing the missiles needs is guide into the return of the specific radar in the specific band.

 

I agree with you for a couple of reasons, but I've seen it happen in DCS

[Bunny Clark]

Remember, there are multiple components to any radar system - transmitting radar pulses, receiving them, and then processing the signals. Much of the practical difference between Pulse and Pulse Doppler modes is in the signal processing. How the AWG-9 and fire control computer on the F-14 interpret returned radar signals has very little effect on AIM-7 guidance other than making sure the AWG-9 transmitter stays on target. For actual guidance, the AIM-7 has its own receiver and does its own signal processing and only relies on the AWG-9 for transmission. Things like notch filters are all in signal processing, and so the AWG-9's settings don't mean much to the AIM-7.

 

I'm not even sure that P-STT vs PD-STT has any effect at all on the AIM-7 receiver, since it's looking for PDI signals. How P-STT, PD-STT, and PDI all interact is beyond my knowledge of radar systems.

[Sam]

You cannot guide an AIM-54 in P-STT, but it will be active off the rail along sensor LoS right ?

 

So when the missile gets fully implemented, I am curious to know what's the max range we can fire it and make sure the missile tracks the target (no other targets around). I guess around 15Nm ?

Edited May 4, 2020 by Panther 976

[Jedrzej]

DCS gives missiles their own doppler gate, it's possible to notch the missile itself.

 

 

I always thought that SARH missile has got simple reciver and basic logic. Just tracks reflected energy from targed being paints by CW in STT or PD-STT in modern ones.

 

 

What sens is using doppler gate in SARH missiles?