Laser mav and targeting pod

[DeltaMike]

Has anyone had trouble with laser mav accuracy when lasing with the targeting pod? My missiles seem go be going a couple hundred yards long.

 

This is on NTTR with targets at ~4700 feet elevation. Firing from 5-10mi

 

LGB's are hitting long, too, about the same distance.

 

I have a waypoint on top of the targets, which I have set to ground level, also tried setting it to sea level which didn't make any difference.

 

If it's just me, that's OK I'll keep working it. But, I'm not having any trouble getting the mavs to lock, arm, fire and explode. Consistently, on the same spot. It's just the wrong spot.

[NineLine]

Do you have a track you can share and we can take a look.

[Ramsay]

Has anyone had trouble with laser mav accuracy when lasing with the targeting pod? My missiles seem go be going a couple hundred yards long.

 

This is on NTTR with targets at ~4700 feet elevation. Firing from 5-10mi

 

What is your distance from the target at the time of impact ?

 

In DCS the TGP Laser Designator has a range of ~8 NM, if the selected target is further away than that, the laser spot floats in mid air.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Ramsay

[DeltaMike]

Thanks NineLine.

 

First pass: I've been releasing in straight and level flight, 15-20K feet. Kinda close the gimbal limit, maybe that's it?

 

Second pass: But here, I'm closer, in a dive, gimbal is closer to center. Same thing

 

Interestingly Tacview is scoring a solid hit every time.

 

ETA: @Ramsay: yeah I was outside of 8mi on both releases, went back and tried at 6mi and 4mi, the latter about 4000' AGL, same result

AGM65E_TPOD_NTTR.trk

Edited September 23, 2019 by DeltaMike

[NineLine]

What is your distance from the target at the time of impact ?

 

In DCS the TGP Laser Designator has a range of ~8 NM, if the selected target is further away than that, the laser spot floats in mid air.

 

 

Have you checked recently, I thought it was extended somewhat, but I would have to search around to see.

[Ziptie]

Has anyone had trouble with laser mav accuracy when lasing with the targeting pod? My missiles seem go be going a couple hundred yards long.

 

This is on NTTR with targets at ~4700 feet elevation. Firing from 5-10mi

 

LGB's are hitting long, too, about the same distance.

 

I have a waypoint on top of the targets, which I have set to ground level, also tried setting it to sea level which didn't make any difference.

 

If it's just me, that's OK I'll keep working it. But, I'm not having any trouble getting the mavs to lock, arm, fire and explode. Consistently, on the same spot. It's just the wrong spot.

 

Are you using point track or area track? If you are using ATRK, try utilizing PTRK (which is achieved by pressing sensor select in the direction the FLIR is displayed on DDI). You will get a box inside the gate display of the FLIR page. Seems like that might be what you are experiencing...

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

[kaoqumba]

Hi! I want to know, ladies and gentlemen, how far can F/A18C's aiming pod detect friendly laser?

[Ziptie]

Hi! I want to know, ladies and gentlemen, how far can F/A18C's aiming pod detect friendly laser?

 

Within DCS, at least 15nm. Can depend on altitude, visibility and other factors. I’ve had longer LSS detections than 15nm, but that is a for sure detectable range. Real world, classified.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

[Ramsay]

Have you checked recently, I thought it was extended somewhat, but I would have to search around to see.

 

IIRC the Laser designator range for *some* AI ground units was increased recently (it had been very short 1-3 km?, might be 2-3 NM now but I haven't tested).

 

The Litening Pod has the same range it's always had, if the slant range between the TGP and target opens up to more than 8.1 NM, the laser spot lifts away from the target and floats mid air (causing laser guided missiles and bombs to miss).

 

I haven't been able to reproduce DeltaMike's bug yet but I've been launching from lower altitudes (7,000 ft) in the Caucasus, so will need to take a closer look at his NTTR mission.

 

Tested with AV-8B and F/A-18C in DCS 2.5.5.35461

Edited September 23, 2019 by Ramsay

[kaoqumba]

Within DCS, at least 15nm. Can depend on altitude, visibility and other factors. I’ve had longer LSS detections than 15nm, but that is a for sure detectable range. Real world, classified.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

 

Thank you very much.

[Ramsay]

If it's just me, that's OK I'll keep working it. But, I'm not having any trouble getting the mavs to lock, arm, fire and explode. Consistently, on the same spot. It's just the wrong spot.

 

I saw the same behaviour in your NTTR track/mission.

 

It seems the static "Comms tower M" (and perhaps the (inactive) smoke marker) is too close to the targets.

 

Moving the static objects 2400 ft East of the T-55 tank column, allowed the TGP laser to illuminate the target tank and mavericks to hit.

 

It's likely the "hit box" for the tower's support cables was overlapping the tanks, causing laser guided bombs/missiles to miss.

[NineLine]

IIRC the Laser designator range for *some* AI ground units was increased recently (it had been very short 1-3 km?, might be 2-3 NM now but I haven't tested).

 

The Litening Pod has the same range it's always had, if the slant range between the TGP and target opens up to more than 8.1 NM, the laser spot lifts away from the target and floats mid air (causing laser guided missiles and bombs to miss).

 

I haven't been able to reproduce DeltaMike's bug yet but I've been launching from lower altitudes (7,000 ft) in the Caucasus, so will need to take a closer look at his NTTR mission.

 

Tested with AV-8B and F/A-18C in DCS 2.5.5.35461

 

Thanks, I will look into it a little more, I thought airborne lasers were up to 15nm, but I might be thinking of something else, I know ground ones were slightly increased.

 

I am not sure what can be done about the floating in mid air thing. Maybe if the laser is being used out side its limits it shouldnt be picked up at all.

[toilet2000]

Thanks, I will look into it a little more, I thought airborne lasers were up to 15nm, but I might be thinking of something else, I know ground ones were slightly increased.

 

I am not sure what can be done about the floating in mid air thing. Maybe if the laser is being used out side its limits it shouldnt be picked up at all.

 

Yeah it shouldn’t be picked up at all. The limited range is due to scattering, so a floating designation point makes no physical sense.

 

And I remember linking some public data on older targeting pod (like the LANTIRN) having a range requirement for designation of 15 nm, with newer pod being like 20. I’ll try finding those links again.

[Ramsay]

... I thought airborne lasers were up to 15nm, but I might be thinking of something else, ...

 

The designator's range is 15 km = ~8.1 NM, perhaps that's the number you are thinking of.

 

I'm not sure on the LSS - it's about 14.5 NM (27 km) when testing for CTLD's JTAC laser spot using the A-10C in 2.5.5.35461

[Harlikwin]

Yeah it shouldn’t be picked up at all. The limited range is due to scattering, so a floating designation point makes no physical sense.

 

And I remember linking some public data on older targeting pod (like the LANTIRN) having a range requirement for designation of 15 nm, with newer pod being like 20. I’ll try finding those links again.

 

The larger issue here is that different lasers will have different ranges so to speak, based on actual laser power, attenuation (like through clouds/dust/smoke), and then the detector sensitivity/signal processing on the pod/weapon. Then you have downstream issues of lasing stability/spot jitter.

 

Not the hardest stuff to simulate, but it might be hard to find good numbers. You could simplify it by broadly defining "generations" both for lasers and detectors and then ignore stuff like jitter even though its a real issue at long range. But that would at least let you differentiate things like the difference between the Litening II and Lantrin, or Different generations of Paveways.

[DeltaMike]

I saw the same behaviour in your NTTR track/mission.

 

It seems the static "Comms tower M" (and perhaps the (inactive) smoke marker) is too close to the targets.

 

Moving the static objects 2400 ft East of the T-55 tank column, allowed the TGP laser to illuminate the target tank and mavericks to hit.

 

It's likely the "hit box" for the tower's support cables was overlapping the tanks, causing laser guided bombs/missiles to miss.

 

Good find! I'll try it without the tower

[NineLine]

The designator's range is 15 km = ~8.1 NM, perhaps that's the number you are thinking of.

 

I'm not sure on the LSS - it's about 14.5 NM (27 km) when testing for CTLD's JTAC laser spot using the A-10C in 2.5.5.35461

 

Ah, you might be right... too many numbers in my head.

[NineLine]

Yeah it shouldn’t be picked up at all. The limited range is due to scattering, so a floating designation point makes no physical sense.

 

And I remember linking some public data on older targeting pod (like the LANTIRN) having a range requirement for designation of 15 nm, with newer pod being like 20. I’ll try finding those links again.

 

Please and thank you, I might have seen them before, but for the sake of checking again, I'll look into it.