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Status of proper FLIR subsystem and the actual ATFLIR pod?


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Posted

The TOP VOTED wanted feature a year-ish ago when ED asked us in a poll.

Whats the status on this? Anyone heard anything about the progress on this?

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Posted

Bit disingenuous there... The winner of the poll was the ATFLIR targeting pod, right enough - but that's because the Litening TGP wasn't an option because it wasn't being offered. The TGP won that poll and in response ED moved things around and decided to give us the Litening TGP which we got in July. I'm sure if they re-ran that poll the ATFLIR wouldn't be top of the list any more.

Posted
Dont be dramatic, once the viper is out the flir development will be re-establish at full pace, Im confident.

 

I think we will finish 2019 with a perfectly working TPOD and TWS mode. The atflir will come right after those I suppose.

 

I hope so. We will speak about it on 1st of january 2020

Posted
Bit disingenuous there... The winner of the poll was the ATFLIR targeting pod, right enough - but that's because the Litening TGP wasn't an option because it wasn't being offered. The TGP won that poll and in response ED moved things around and decided to give us the Litening TGP which we got in July. I'm sure if they re-ran that poll the ATFLIR wouldn't be top of the list any more.
I agree

 

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Posted

If you want to properly represent at a US Navy hornet ATFLIR is the pod we need. Cannot do boat stuff with litening, if you want to be realistic.

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  • ED Team
Posted

Hey everyone,

 

This task is underway, but a huge one. It's not simply a matter of adjusting some shaders, but we must create alternate textures for all world and unit objects (hundreds) that can then be alterned based on unit activity level, time of day, and perhaps even IR nets.

 

This is certainly an important item, but it will take a signficant amount of time to do it right.

 

Thanks

Posted

Wags,

 

Are you guys going to model the differences in resolving power based on the various generations and technologies of FLIR pods. I.e. Litening/Atflir vs Lantrin or even older pods? (i.e. sensor resolution 512x512 vs 1k vs the oldschool line scanning systems?

 

Also, FLIR sees through (most) smoke :)

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  • ED Team
Posted
Wags,

 

Are you guys going to model the differences in resolving power based on the various generations and technologies of FLIR pods. I.e. Litening/Atflir vs Lantrin or even older pods? (i.e. sensor resolution 512x512 vs 1k vs the oldschool line scanning systems?

 

Also, FLIR sees through (most) smoke :)

 

Hi Harlikwin,

 

It's rather earlier to make such statements when things can change so much. Once we are further along and concrete poured, we can talk more abou such features.

 

Thanks

Posted
Just out of curiosity, what are IR nets?
thermal camouflage netting... could be things like tents or just simple nets, that you throw over a vehicle or part of equipment in order to camouflage it from visible light and/or infrared detection.

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Posted (edited)
No, it doesn't. Categorically untrue.

 

facepalm-head.jpg

 

You might want to make sure you're actually right before making those bold statements there Trev. I'm sure all the firefighters that use them would agree as thats been one of their primary uses for DECADES.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Harlikwin

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Posted
thermal camouflage netting... could be things like tents or just simple nets, that you throw over a vehicle or part of equipment in order to camouflage it from visible light and/or infrared detection.

 

Yeah, thermal isn't really "magic predator vision" like most people think. Most things that block visible light will block thermal quite well too. Foliage being a great example. However one thing that early thermal users noticed was that synthetic materials looked "different" under thermal imaging, that was quickly rectified. Thermal images are combination of emissivity and reflectivity as well.

 

for example look at the background versus the jacket. Its only looking at the "surface" of the material, not whats behind it.

 

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Posted

POD IR does not work through smoke. Not even sure why this is an argument or why I’m even wasting my time typing this. There’s 500 videos put there of about every pod in the inventory on youtube, live leak, etc. Thermal imaging cameras vs pod IR is an abysmal comparison. Why not use all the video samples that are on the internet to prove the point? Why? Because they do the opposite.

Posted

What you guys are talking about is much deeper than yes/no.

 

It depends on the material and density of the smoke, and the wavelengths detectable by the IR sensor.

 

Short, Mid, and Long wave IF sensors have different capabilities in "smoke penetration".

 

Also, most IR sensors will not see through clouds.

Posted (edited)
POD IR does not work through smoke. Not even sure why this is an argument or why I’m even wasting my time typing this. There’s 500 videos put there of about every pod in the inventory on youtube, live leak, etc. Thermal imaging cameras vs pod IR is an abysmal comparison. Why not use all the video samples that are on the internet to prove the point? Why? Because they do the opposite.

 

Hm... I dunno what this "POD IR" is, are you talking actual targeting pods used by militaries?

 

Because systems like Litening and Lantrin etc. use MWIR and or LWIR thermal imagers, I'm sure the newer ones might also have sensor fused SWIR, and of course the usual CCD/LLTV chanels. And SWIR/MWIR/LWIR all see through most smoke. (There are exceptions for engineered smoke, and maybe really dense smoke). The general physics of it are that if the particulate is smaller than the actual frequency of light being used it will see through it and most particles are smaller than ~1 micron, while most thermal imagers work in 3-12 micron range. But Even SWIR which works on the 1-1.5 micron range can see through smoke, albeit not as well as longer wavelengths as you can see in the following video.

 

 

 

If you want to post up an example of "POD IR" you speak of I'd be happy to look at it and interpret it for you.

 

The other fun fact being that western armor guys, for the bulk of the cold war and beyond routinely relied on smoke that they could see through while the OPFOR that lacked thermal sights could not.

 

But please show me these hundreds of videos. Even one or two good ones will do.

 

Also as Beamscanner pointed out, Fog and Clouds aren't smoke. They have different properties, and generally speaking MWIR/LWIR/SWIR don't see too well through them because water particles tend to absorb and scatter IR radiation and the longer the wavelength the worse that usually is. Again, because physics.

Edited by Harlikwin

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Posted

i would assume, that longer wavelength imaging suffers over distance, because resolution is worse.

ac targeting pods need to see much further than ground troops do, so i'd think they go for smaller wavelengths in general.

again, this is just my educated guess.

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Posted
i would assume, that longer wavelength imaging suffers over distance, because resolution is worse.

ac targeting pods need to see much further than ground troops do, so i'd think they go for smaller wavelengths in general.

again, this is just my educated guess.

 

Well, you're sort of right, but thats actually a very complicated due to several competing variables. The argument for MWIR use in long range detectors due to somewhat better longer range performance because it suffers less atmospheric attenuation under most atmospheric conditions. However, depending on what you actually need to see (hot jet exhaust or people or buildings), LWIR can outperform MWIR in many situations. Basically MWIR detectors work much better for high temp/high energy objects (why its used in missile seeker heads) while LWIR detectors are much more sensitive at ambient temperatures to say "people" and also have a much better dynamic range which helps with detection/detector saturation issues. There is also more thermal energy in the LWIR band to begin with which also helps with detection. Thermal contrast is also a major consideration with detection/identification.

 

And again its important to remember thermal is looking at radiated surface temp. The example of a hot car engine is the one I like to use because if you put your hand on the hood of a car, thats whats showing up on thermals, NOT the 500 degree engine sitting under that hood.

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Posted
And again its important to remember thermal is looking at radiated surface temp. The example of a hot car engine is the one I like to use because if you put your hand on the hood of a car, thats whats showing up on thermals, NOT the 500 degree engine sitting under that hood.

That. I got to play with a thermal camera recently and it was interesting to see that a running car's hood didn't appear hotter than the rest of it. The asphalt appeared hotter, but I think this was due to its own temperature + reflecting thermal radiation (?). Shadows also appeared brighter, any idea why?

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Posted
Hey everyone,

 

This task is underway, but a huge one. It's not simply a matter of adjusting some shaders, but we must create alternate textures for all world and unit objects (hundreds) that can then be alterned based on unit activity level, time of day, and perhaps even IR nets.

 

This is certainly an important item, but it will take a signficant amount of time to do it right.

 

Thanks

 

Wags,

 

After a second read, I've come to notice that somehow the team is linking the development of the ATFLIR to the implementation of this new FLIR render system, but giving a second thought, that should not be the case right? Or it is more complicated...

 

Meaning that, once this system is implemented the litening will not use it? Will it be necessary a revisit to the litening to adapt the new system that the Atflir will be using? Or it is just a matter that the team prefer to concentrate efforts in the new rendering before wasting time in another FLIR pod until that is completed?

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