[ALREADY REPORTED] LTWS: Instant Missile Warning

[Papa Saubär]

Hello there,

 

today, incidentally, I noticed a problem with the RWR (LTWS fired Fox3, Visual Mode).

 

Situation

Testpilot BLUE with a F/A-18C Hornet use the LTWS to "softlock" testpilot RED also with a F/A-18C Hornet (test 2 with a J-11A) in a normal BVR setting. Once the two aircrafts are under 20 NM away, testpilot BLUE will fire his LTWS FOX3 missile (AIM-120B).

 

Test 1 (F/A-18C)

instant missile warning after launching one FOX3 from testpilot BLUE

 

 

 

Test 2 (J-11A)

late missile warning (> 4 NM)

 

 

Ultimately, this problem is very impractical and unfair for competitive pilots. :pilotfly:

Edited October 28, 2019 by Papa Saubär

[NineLine]

We don't see a bug, there was no hard STT lock, so the only RWR lock would be the AIM-120 going seeker active.

[Papa Saubär]

We don't see a bug, there was no hard STT lock, so the only RWR lock would be the AIM-120 going seeker active.

 

Unfortunately, I do not see it that way. I know the difference between STT and the LTWS "lock", but when you watched my videos you will see the difference warning times between an FC3 plane and your F/A-18C Hornet.

 

Short for repetition:

 

Test1 (Hornet vs Hornet):

BLUE fire a FOX3 with LTWS, RED Hornet get instant a missile warning (over 15 NM!)

 

Test2 (Hornet vs chinese Flanker):

BLUE fire a FOX3 with LTWS, RED Flanker get a missile warning later (> 4 NM)

Edited October 28, 2019 by Papa Saubär

[TrikeFighter]

Hi there,

I made a rework with an AI and with a Human (Both Blue and Red).

 

At all cases the Hornet gets an instant missile warning and all FC3 planes get only a warning when the aim120 b/c gets active!

[Harker]

First of all, the LTWS shouldn't generate any RWR lock warning, since it's a submode of RWS, nothing more. It also shouldn't be able to guide a missile to the target, but that's another issue. So, in any event, an AIM-120 "launch with LTWS" should only generate an RWR warning from the missile's seeker, once it goes active. I agree that the Hornet's RWR shouldn't be picking up the launch, unless something else is occurring in the sim than IRL (which probably is, since missile guidance is possible).

Another issue is the difference between the level of modeling and/or the capabilities between the Hornet's ALR-67(V2) RWR and the equivalent models used in those FC3 planes. The AIM-120 should go active around 8-10NM from the target, but maybe the FC3 RWR can't immediately pick it up.

[Papa Saubär]

First of all, the LTWS shouldn't generate any RWR lock warning, since it's a submode of RWS, nothing more. It also shouldn't be able to guide a missile to the target, but that's another issue. So, in any event, an AIM-120 "launch with LTWS" should only generate an RWR warning from the missile's seeker, once it goes active. I agree that the Hornet's RWR shouldn't be picking up the launch, unless something else is occurring in the sim than IRL (which probably is, since missile guidance is possible).

Another issue is the difference between the level of modeling and/or the capabilities between the Hornet's ALR-67(V2) RWR and the equivalent models used in those FC3 planes. The AIM-120 should go active around 8-10NM from the target, but maybe the FC3 RWR can't immediately pick it up.

 

Many thanks for your response, Harker.

 

Maybe I choose a bad thread title, but the (RWR) problem is real.

 

Briefly, I checked the issue with a F-14B Tomcat and AI Hornets. I could reproduce the result. The Tomcat, also Flanker, get the missile warning only when the AIM-120 B/C seaker get active (< 10 NM), but with the same firing distance (> 21 NM) the Hornet get the missile warning immediately (> 21 NM with a AIM-120B). No plane get first a STT lock warning...

 

I will collect more data and will post it.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Papa Saubär

[BarTzi]

You are missing a key point here.

 

LTWS can not be used to guide a missile. LTWS will switch to either STT ot TWS upon launch (depends on your missile). It currently works for the AIM-7.

 

TWS is not modeled yet, so what you are seeing is AIM-120 launched in VISUAL mode, which means the missile radar is activated on launch. You can do it without locking - it doesn't matter. The fact that you are tracking via LTWS does not matter at all here.

As I understand it - it should trigger your RWR when the missile is launched.

Edited October 28, 2019 by BarTzi

[Harker]

You are missing a key point here.

 

LTWS can not be used to guide a missile. LTWS will switch to either STT ot TWS upon launch (depends on your missile). It currently works for the AIM-7.

 

TWS is not modeled yet, so what you are seeing is AIM-120 launched in VISUAL mode, which means the missile radar is activated on launch. You can do it without locking - it doesn't matter. The fact that you are tracking via LTWS does not matter at all here.

As I understand it - it should trigger your RWR.

Do a test by launching the AIM-7 in STT, then unlock and immediately hit TDC to designate the target as the L&S target. The AIM-7 will still receive guidance up to impact. At least it did for me a couple of weeks ago.

[BarTzi]

Do a test by launching the AIM-7 in STT, then unlock and immediately hit TDC to designate the target as the L&S target. The AIM-7 will still receive guidance up to impact. At least it did for me a couple of weeks ago.

 

I'm not sure how it behaves in-game in those scenarios. It should not be accurate enough to support weapon guidance. This is also something that Wags talked about in his intro to LTWS. OP was talking about Aim-120, and he did launch it in VISUAL mode.

Edited October 28, 2019 by BarTzi

[Harker]

I'm not sure how it behaves in-game in those scenarios. It should not be accurate enough to support weapon guidance. This is also something that Wags talked about in his intro to LTWS.

Of course it shouldn't. But this is a bug thread, we're talking about bugs in the sim . That's why I wrote"that's another issue" when I spoke about it before. Looks similar to an issue with the SAM mode in the F-16, which generates an STT warning on the target's RWR and can guide missiles as well, while it shouldn't. I think they're related issues that will be ironed out in time.

 

EDIT: Whoo! 1000th post! :holiday:

Edited October 28, 2019 by Harker
whoo reasons

[Harker]

Also did a test. Me in an F-14 vs AI in an F-14. I get lock warning, but not a missile warning until the Phoenix becomes active. What we get from this is that there is no missile warning until the Phoenix goes active.

 

Same scenario, me in an F/A-18C. As soon as the Tomcat fires, the RWR tone goes from STT warning to a missile warning.

 

I uploaded a track of the second scenario. To my understanding, the Hornet shouldn't get an immediate missile launch warning unless an STT launch takes place.

 

(The above is a little confusing, since it means that the Tomcat is locking me in STT, but the missile is supported like it's in TWS. Unless TWS is enough to generate a lock warning or the Phoenix can be launched like that IRL, I don't know. The expected behavior is that either I get an STT warning and then a launch warning when the missile is fired (STT launch) or no warning at all until the missile goes active (TWS launch)).

FA-18C_RWR_bug.trk

[Rabbisaur]

Hi, this is no bug.

 

You fired AIM120 in visual mode. Fox3(mad dog) off rail.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Rabbisaur

[Jak525]

Side note, thinking about it I feel like maybe LTWS can guide AMRAAMs. If it can't, it's a software barrier vs a technical one. The only difference between RWS(LTWS) and TWS is that TWS forces a smaller scan volume and has auto scan centering; otherwise a trackfile is a trackfile. While I can see how the computer might automatically go to TWS when launching an AMRAAM from RWS, I don't see why we couldn't switch back to RWS and still guide the missile and also get the normal HUD cues for a guided launch when an L&S is designated in RWS. Again though, maybe there's an artificial software barrier; Idk. Hope that all makes sense.

[BarTzi]

It is about to become very confusing to follow. Multiple tracks of multiple issues are never a good thing in a thread dedicated to one "issue".

 

OP's title is an accurate description of the visual mode he used to launch the missile (it's not a bug). Other RWR \ guidance issues deserve their own report. It will be easier for the devs.

[Moafuleum]

I get the idea of the visual mode, resulting in an instant lock by the missile and therefore a launch warning. However the RWR shows a flashing 18 symbol. Technically, the target is not painted by the F-18's onboard radar but from the AIM120's radar. Shouldn't the RWR react differently?

 

 

 

I'm referring to the very first video

[aaron886]

Yes. Not many people are actually reading what Papa Saubar is saying. If you watch that first video closely (which could do a better job of showing the EW indications all the way to impact instead of the map view,) you'll notice the initial critical indication is an 18, and not until later in the video does it change to a mippling 18 and M, indicating a critical 18 and the active missile seeker.

 

 

 

This pretty clearly invalidates the suggestion that the missile is launching in VISUAL mode.

[Harker]

Side note, thinking about it I feel like maybe LTWS can guide AMRAAMs. If it can't, it's a software barrier vs a technical one. The only difference between RWS(LTWS) and TWS is that TWS forces a smaller scan volume and has auto scan centering; otherwise a trackfile is a trackfile. While I can see how the computer might automatically go to TWS when launching an AMRAAM from RWS, I don't see why we couldn't switch back to RWS and still guide the missile and also get the normal HUD cues for a guided launch when an L&S is designated in RWS. Again though, maybe there's an artificial software barrier; Idk. Hope that all makes sense.

Indeed, a trackfile is a trackfile, and that might work against a non-maneuvering target, but if the target goes defensive, the update rate is not high enough to provide accurate course corrections. I guess if you decrease the azimuth and manage to keep the target inside in order to get a higher update rate, then maybe? The problem is that LTWS is still RWS, the target is not actively tracked.

[NineLine]

Yes. Not many people are actually reading what Papa Saubar is saying. If you watch that first video closely (which could do a better job of showing the EW indications all the way to impact instead of the map view,) you'll notice the initial critical indication is an 18, and not until later in the video does it change to a mippling 18 and M, indicating a critical 18 and the active missile seeker.

 

 

 

This pretty clearly invalidates the suggestion that the missile is launching in VISUAL mode.

 

The OP should upload a track then, much better to see what is going on.

[NineLine]

Many thanks for your response, Harker.

 

Maybe I choose a bad thread title, but the (RWR) problem is real.

 

Briefly, I checked the issue with a F-14B Tomcat and AI Hornets. I could reproduce the result. The Tomcat, also Flanker, get the missile warning only when the AIM-120 B/C seaker get active (< 10 NM), but with the same firing distance (> 21 NM) the Hornet get the missile warning immediately (> 21 NM with a AIM-120B). No plane get first a STT lock warning...

 

I will collect more data and will post it.

 

Can you supply the tracks you used for the videos, please?

[Papa Saubär]

Can you supply the tracks you used for the videos, please?

 

Yes, sure.

 

Situation:

 

Evil Red Pilot: F/A-18C Hornet

 

Blue Test: Hornet, Tomcat, Viper

 

The RWR from the Tomcat looks great, but the Hornet RWR and also the Viper seems to be broken (warning without STT at ~ 30 NM). Furthermore the missile follow the target...

 

And my mate had the normal problems with the Hornet, can't see the target... Respawn and it works.

 

RWR_Test-20191031-214905.trk

Edited October 31, 2019 by Papa Saubär

[Papa Saubär]

Can you supply the tracks you used for the videos, please?

 

I added the trackfile above.

 

Did you see what I mean?

[NineLine]

I'll check them out shortly, thanks.

[NineLine]

Ok, just talked with Wags about it, and this is already reported/known, thanks for the effort and the report!