OH-58D Kiowa cyclic grip for DCS

[BaD CrC]

Hi guys.

 

Not really a home cockpit topic and not something from the mainstream controls manufacturers. I thought you might be interested.

 

With Polychop starting to advertise their upcoming OH-58D, I started to look for a grip that offers a bit more than the usual chopper grip. The OH-58D cyclic and collective are some of the most badass looking grips around and there is nothing close today on the sim market, except the EC145 grip from Komodo, and potentially a future OH-58D one from Komodo too, but that's still to be announced.

 

So I started to look at what I could do. The cyclic's shape of the Kiowa is really complex and there is a lot of push buttons and directional switches on it. Not easy to even 3D print something that would look close to the real thing.

 

[BaD CrC]

I came across a real OH-58D copilot cyclic on ebay. Price was crazy high but the seller, a retired Army veteran, kindly accepted to reduced his price by 50% which didn't make it cheap but at least a little bit more sane.

 

 

 

 

The grip was in perfect condition, all wired up and after an hour spent with a ohmmeter to look for what wire is doing what, it turned out that all the pushbuttons and other switches were perfectly working. :thumbup:

 

 

The thumb stick for the control of the mast sight though gave me a bit of a headache though. It was a motional transducer, not the usual 4 directions switch. It basically works like a mini joystick but the range of the resistance delivered was way too small to be measured like one. After thinking about this over and over, I had to make up my mind and replace it :cry::

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by BaD CrC

[BaD CrC]

I didn't want though to replace this transducer with some cheap chinese thumbstick (this would be insulting the build quality of this grip) so I looked around for a while until I could find some affordable military or industrial grade 4 directional switches with the right diameter for the grip. I finally found this:

 

 

I had to rewire a bit inside the grip to mount this new thumbstick:

 

 

Here how it looks like at the end:

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by BaD CrC

[BaD CrC]

The idea was to reuse my existing UH-1H equipment from MicroHelis.de. The cyclic base is a solid build based on hall effect sensors and hydraulic dampers on each axis which gives an really incredible realistic feeling.

 

 

I am becoming a big fan of using dampers everywhere. This is so much closer to the real thing and it allows to get rid of the self centering springs, as it should when flying choppers. I even did Greekbull's damper mod on a Thrustmaster Pendular Rudder and cannot be happier with the result. :thumbup:

 

So the next step was to find a way to adapt the grip to the microhelis cyclic base. Good news is that both the base and the Kiowa's grip are using metric system. Bad news is that I am living in the only country in the World still using imperial system :doh:.

 

After looking for some metric tubing at ridiculous price, I ended up finding some electrical tubing with a diameter that could get the grip base with only a bit of sanding required (for the tube, not the grip!).

 

 

Finally, I was able to mount my new OH-58D cyclic on the microhelis base and connect all the switches and pots to a Leo Bodnard BU0836X card.

 

 

I had my first flight with this new cyclic tonight. The whole cyclic is a bit heavier than the one from microhelis so if you don't hold it, it slowly moves back into the seat. But this is really not an issue when flying. Pushing those military grade buttons is giving an incredible feeling of smoothness and sturdiness at the same time. Day and night from all the grips I had so far. And the 2 stage trigger actually IS two stages, meaning that the second stage position of the trigger actually disengage the first stage position. So you have this second stage closed without the first one closed too, making it much easier to say have a PTT for SRS and another different one for Discord with the same trigger.

 

Next step, build a OH-58D Collective!!!

Edited November 25, 2019 by BaD CrC

[BlacleyCole]

Nice you plan on creating a 3D model of it for those with a 3D printer?

[BaD CrC]

I will probably 3D print the collective head unless something comes up on the market. The cyclic grip’s shape is way too complex for me to try to model it.

[yogi149]

Hi,

hm, we got pictures from the Austrian-Army (not Australian :music_whistling: ) for the OH-58A cyclic grip.

Left in the double picture, that shows my WIP for the grips.

 

And we got a German-Army Huey grip.

 

 

BTW: for the A type, the collective seems to be the same as for the Bell 206 Jetranger.

But the D-Type did not look difficult

Edited November 25, 2019 by yogi149
additinal info

[BaD CrC]

Hi Yogi! Nice to see you still around the forum! Hope you are considering the collective too!

On your 3D model, I don't see the slight twist of the grip that you have on the real one that relieves your right hand's wrist.

Edited November 25, 2019 by BaD CrC

[TomVR]

can't the transducer be wired like a pot?

Edited November 25, 2019 by TomVR

[Mr_sukebe]

That looks awesome, great work

[BaD CrC]

can't the transducer we wired like a pot?

 

The range was 0 to 400 ohms per axis when you need 0 to 100000 ohms for an USB joystick.

[Sokol1_br]

Hi,

hm, we got pictures from the Austrian-Army (not Australian :music_whistling: ) for the OH-58A cyclic grip.

[ATTACH]221726[/ATTACH]

 

Think that basic drawings for this grip are in that old Mason PDF posted somewhere in this forum.

[Fri13]

 

 

That is what Warthog should have....

[TomVR]

The range was 0 to 400 ohms per axis when you need 0 to 100000 ohms for an USB joystick.

 

Could loadcell amp (used for racing brake pedals) bring it up to the required range?

 

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=73&zenid=9f96f0225338afa8befd777ae09dc57e

 

I use a transducer stick a lot for work and they really are magical devices for delicate analog control, I highly recommend trying to savage it.

 

Just a two axis transducer, pretty much any slow zoom you’ve ever seen in a movie used this controller.

https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses-accessories/motors-control/preston-micro-force-vf3

Edited November 25, 2019 by TomVR

[BaD CrC]

Well, I will certainly not throw this one away.

Also, I don't think either the Ka-50's Shkval or the Gazelle's Viviane sight today can be controlled by analog input but only key presses. So I can only assume this will be the case for the OH-58D hence the 4 directional switch instead.

[BlacleyCole]

What you need is a 3D scanner

[yogi149]

Hi,

 

 

because the OTTO Thumbstick was to expensive, I designed a mini-thumb-stick with an interior 5-way mini-coolie.

For this I changed my previous adapter, which I used since I started my replicas. This adapter should have the same outer diameter as the OTTO part (measured from an original B8-grip).

Now I change the coolies from my 4-way with encoder to this new type.

I can use it with other heads even as no turning 2-way stick, like the increase-decrease for the UH-1 collective

 

 

 

I think that a 4-way on the cyclic grip will be more usefull, than an analog input. :music_whistling:

[yogi149]

Hi

 

What you need is a 3D scanner

did you ever try to make a good and functional replica via a 3D-scan?

The scan is only 1-3% of the work you need for a good version.:music_whistling:

[BlacleyCole]

No I was said with a sense of humor

[yogi149]

Hi,

:music_whistling:we used a 3D-scan I made.

But this is really only for the start of the modeling.

The shown scan has 1.400.000 points with nearly 500.000 sides

Edited November 25, 2019 by yogi149
additional info

[Gruman]

Just saying... DeltaSim here on the forum, who made the Slew Replacement for the Warthog trottle, made an adapter to get those mini transducer to work. You could contact him.

I have one of those in my Throttle.

 

Or send me a PM with a price... Maybe we can have a deal :D

 

But in the end, you will have to supply it with the correct voltage (probably 5VDC - GND). Then depending on the direction and force you will get an output voltage on the 4 output wires.

This output voltage can easely be increased by any OPAMP with the propper resistors applied.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Gruman

[Rogue Trooper]

Superb looking grip.

I think the OH58D collective would probably be the best collective for VR headset users, 5 hats offers a lot of hotas!

[Ranma13]

RS Electronics sells a 2-axes force transducer here:

 

https://americas.rsdelivers.com/product/zf/462c-1/zf-462c-1-2-way-joystick-switch-knob-momentary/0419681

 

This is the same one used in Deltasim's force sensor mod before it went out of stock. It might seem really costly at $462, but considering that typical force transducers start at $1000 and only go up from there, it's actually pretty cheap. RS Electronics also sells two different caps for it:

 

https://americas.rsdelivers.com/productlist/search?query=ultra-electronics&tag=&family=8318

 

Though you can also 3D print one for cheaper.

 

BadCrc, if you still have that transducer and don't mind selling it, I'd be willing to buy it off you or trade you the aforementioned Ultra 462 sensor for it (I have one with a cap). Please let me know, thanks!

[yogi149]

Hi,

are you really able to control the position with the transducer while using the Cyclic to control?

 

I would prefer a clicable solution, where I can move my thumb away.

[TomVR]

That's the magic of transducers, they work really, really well on a device that you are also moving with since it's entirely pressure based, not requiring any displacement or movement of your thumb.

 

That microforce controller I posted earlier is typically mounted on the handle of camera tripod so you can grip it to operate the camera and still finely adjust the pressure on it.

 

FSSB users can also attest that there is something really amazing about pressure based analog control.