A/G Radar Worries and ED work overload.

[MacEwan]

I wonder sometimes if people on this forum have no interest in the history of aviation?

 

You do realise that there were whole generations of all weather attack aircraft that's primary sensor was Radar? F111, Tornado, Intruder, su-24. Have you never heard of radar offset bombing. As some people have pointed you would never use ins to strike a pin point target, even the best ins will drift., heck fly heatblurs tomcat for an hour and see where the Ins thinks you are!

 

I don't doubt plenty of current F18 pilots say they never use the a/g radar, but if you think about type of conflicts they have been involved with for the past 20 years why would they.

That's not to say it hasn't in the past been vital and given this is a game, maybe you might conceed doing something other than plinking targets with LGB's might be fun.

 

Hornets have relied on a-g radar in the past before the widespread use of gps weapons and navigation.

 

The following is from Major Steve Pomeroy who flew F-18's with VMFA-333 during the first Gulf War:

 

"My most memorable mission was a big strike. I'm a striker rather than one of the SEAD escorts. My particular target is a railroad yard. Lousy weather, pitch black, low overcast so you can see all of the AAA and surface to air missile coming through it, but you can't physically see the target. We can acquire the target based on radar predictions. You're looking through the head up display showing slant range, elevation. You're told the computer where the target is and the weapons are released base on that information"

 

Agree 100%

[Fri13]

I wonder sometimes if people on this forum have no interest in the history of aviation?

 

You do realise that there were whole generations of all weather attack aircraft that's primary sensor was Radar? F111, Tornado, Intruder, su-24. Have you never heard of radar offset bombing. As some people have pointed you would never use ins to strike a pin point target, even the best ins will drift., heck fly heatblurs tomcat for an hour and see where the Ins thinks you are![/Quote]

 

Yes we do know about those missions and those aircraft capabilities. F-111 was the most tank kills done fighter in 1GF. Because that off-set thing.

But so you know what it means? What we are talking about!

 

Your radar can't detect your target. So you find something in the mission design phase that you will find. And then you create off-set from that landmark to target by range and bearing, and you have your target to bomb.

 

Now on next day when you take off, you have mission computer programmed for the route and targets. And off you go. When approaching target area, you turn your radar on and you will search for your landmark, like a huge bridge or a crossroad of paved road, and you designate that with your radar and now your off-set is from that designation to your actual target. Like 4533 ft to 321°. On the moment you designate the landmark you could detect, starts your clock against INS drifting.

It doesn't matter what so ever how much INS has drifted since calibration and take-off, or where your aircraft thinks you are.

Because the system is so accurate that in next 5 minutes the INS drift is minimal between designation and flying to off-set target that has your weapon delivery point.

And now you fly to point by computer and it drops bombs on it, you never seeing the target at all.

All you had was the latest intelligence from previous day, maybe a few hours old at best, and A-G radar capable to detect huge landmarks like bridges, crossroads, large buildings, water shores etc. Not actual targets.

 

And your succession depends that DID TARGET MOVE OR NOT between intelligence and you releasing bombs?

 

I don't doubt plenty of current F18 pilots say they never use the a/g radar, but if you think about type of conflicts they have been involved with for the past 20 years why would they. [/Quote]

 

If you read to this thread, you find that like me and few others talked about this. That regardless your A-G radar even in the latest classic hornet, you will be operating basing intelligence and target data from all other sources than your radar. You don't go there to find your targets, you go there to sync your INS to known terrain. And you will deliver bombs on target that intelligence has given to you as coordinates.

 

And that is even from pilots who never has participated in the USA conflicts, but even today are training to perform those A-G strikes, and still the TPOD is the preferred method even if target doesn't move, and if the target stays in the area but moves, it is recon that will guide you in and give you updated coordinates, even them just looking map and you looking same map and they say "250 meters to east of road 371 joining with 2247, 1450 meters to 225° and target is 20 meters north from two rocks,"

 

And if you have skill to read a map, that you have trained to do since 3rd class in a school, you will find the target middle of the forest that has no landmarks, no visual and defineatly your A-G radar has zero capability to see anything in the area. Because you don't even use radar if your GPS is operational or you get to sync your INS by other means. As you already have accurate target position by 10 meters accuracy and your main problem is to get your aircraft position on the map.

 

As unlike the Hornet in DCS, in real world hornet has capability to have very accurate digital moving map from the target area.

 

The pilots are always having the same problem as any soldier on the ground, "Where am I?".

As no matter how great map you have, or information of coordinates where to go etc. If you do not know where you are, you can't operate.

 

When many learn from the kid to perform all kind military tactics to engage enemy as a group by learning soccer, basketball and baseball, others learn similar through other games but as well they are orienteering by running in a forest with a map in their hands and competing to recon enemy locations and reporting it accurately to others in shortest possible time, transmitting coordinates between visuals and drawn map.

 

And that is one critical component in military, cartographer thats job is to offer tools that allows combined operations.

 

Sure people might think that GPS and TPOD are great. They became great. But still fundamental skill is know how to navigate and find something using map.

On strategical level it doesn't matter is there how many trees or how many buildings. But on tactical level it matters.

 

And when your weapon is not a few millimeter precision rifle with a few hundred meters range, but a 250 kg imprecise highly explosive bomb with 250m kill radius and 750m wounding radius, you will see the world differently.

 

A infantry on ground ambushing a tank with a RPG needs to be able hit the target with 1 meter accuracy from a 100 meters.

A pilot dropping a bomb on a same tank needs to be accurate to 30-50 meters.

 

But where infantry can easily react to sudden moves, pilot not so much if not having visual and even then it is few seconds late at best.

 

Still today the most destructive force there is, is artillery. Most tank kills in the history of modern warfare as long tanks has existed. As any soldier with a map reading skills can guide a artillery on target. And through various improvements in training and communication capabilities, one can guide an artillery strike in 10-20 meters accuracy without using guided munition and range being almost tens of kilometers. And since giving a firing order, it is about two minutes before impacts.

 

And again, you being inside a forest where no A-G radar penetrates, against enemy that has concealed them against radars, thermals and even capable to counter your laser designation, it all comes to coordinates and means to guide fire on the enemy.

 

A-G radar is icing on the cake. Just like is GPS and moving map.

Even the TPOD is very high tech and far more reliable than either of those two. As when you can't even find targets with radar, you can with a map and even INS with inaccuracies. And then you should be able pin point a bomb on the target.

 

When you take-off for a strike, you know your target, you know it is not moving, and all you must figure out is to know where you are and where you are not.

 

Even today if it is a zero visibility, and you have this exact Hornet we have in DCS, you don't engage many targets if you can't use TPOD. You don't go with A-G radar to search targets by your own and drop bombs on enemy tanks. Even when you have trained for it's use for years or decades even.

 

That's not to say it hasn't in the past been vital and given this is a game, maybe you might conceed doing something other than plinking targets with LGB's might be fun.

 

Hornets have relied on a-g radar in the past before the widespread use of gps weapons and navigation.

 

The following is from Major Steve Pomeroy who flew F-18's with VMFA-333 during the first Gulf War:

 

"My most memorable mission was a big strike. I'm a striker rather than one of the SEAD escorts. My particular target is a railroad yard. Lousy weather, pitch black, low overcast so you can see all of the AAA and surface to air missile coming through it, but you can't physically see the target. We can acquire the target based on radar predictions. You're looking through the head up display showing slant range, elevation. You're told the computer where the target is and the weapons are released base on that information"

 

Yes. Again please notice the target.

 

Do you know how easy target it is to find even on map?

And if it is a temporal one that ain't on map, you still know where to go by other intelligence.

 

Using A-G radar for such targets is like targeting a bridge. You will find it on radar scope, just like you will find an airfield, harbour or a carrier at sea.

 

But you don't find a tank middle of the forest, edge of the forest or enemy defense positions or even enemy motormarch on a road middle of forest.

 

Extremely fancy tech and great for that kind. You place radar scan a given point on map, you get enlarged radar scan from the area. You get to see is the 25 car train on rail 5 or 2, and you get to put large bombing cross on the big blob with 50m accuracy. Your bombs with good nice separation like 6x 70ft does their job perfectly fine in that situation.

 

You can do that same thing with just map, INS calibrated on landmark on way to target, target coordinates inputted to computer and strike completed.

 

You do know that Viggen is amazing in this? Or currently Hornet without any A-G capabilities? Again, INS is a key and capability input target coordinates for bomb release.

Even a real Su-25T has that capability as you got its Shkval automatically slaved to target coordinates and it gives you bombing solution. And that has no radar and no FLIR etc to see anything. But it is not modeled in DCS.

 

The A-G radar does just "seeing the map" as alternative way.

 

With a map, I can give you coordinates in 10m accuracy for that same train depot... And if you can get your position accurate, you can bomb all night along above cloud cover...

 

 

That is like it would be on the paper map as well on Hornet screen for target designation,

And no, our hornet in DCS doesn't simulate that.

 

But what you do when your military operations are middle of nowhere? Middle of a sand desert that has no landmarks of any kinda for kilometers? And only thing that really pop-up is a enemy defense positions digged on the sand?

A-G radar loves that... Just like it loves if enemy is so stupid that they park their MBT platoon middle of a large harvested crop field that is like 30 hectares in area.

 

Get the drift? DCS doesn't simulate a intelligent enemy. It doesn't simulate ground clutter and many other elements. Why you will come to see a lot happy A-G missions just like this far, people placing units at open without any realistic air defense in 100km radius and then be wild when they can drop some bombs and feel great. Regardless that even our FLIR sees all as clear as binary code.

 

A very modern FLIR can do amazing things, but 20-30 years back and it becomes... Well. And against enemy that doesn't even try to hide from it....

 

But maybe we should just praise the all-seeing-eye if we get one, or damn it if we get semi-realistic one....

[Harlikwin]

Nick Grey interview with Grim Reapers explains all these questions. Very well done interview, sheds alot of light and makes a ton of sense why ED does what they do.

 

Link?

[Fri13]

Link?