OH-58D Announcement

[Hiob]

2 hours ago, YoYo said:

 (I hope they also will change the terrible AI management and they will do it like for George and Petro, with 5 buttons instead of 22).

Why not wait and actually try it yourself before condemning it? Other than George and Peter it actually seem to work properly. Casmo seemed very pleased with it.

From what I‘ve seen in Casmos Videos, I anticipate it the first multicrew vehicle that I can actually use to its full potential as single pilot. 

And regarding the buttons count - you can simply use a modifier switch and use all the buttons on your hotas, or, more likely what I will do, just use the plenty buttons on my throttle, that I usually don’t need for helicopters.

(and btw. usually you don’t need all the binding options that exist - most likely some are redundant as always)

[ThorBrasil]

2 hours ago, WizzRD said:

I for one applaud PC´s decision to charge full price for a feature complete product and even tho I´m not a Helicopter person I´ll buy day 1.

Never understood why Devs feel the need to de-value their product before they even sold a single copy. I certainly would go the other way around and charge 99.99 for the first 6 months or so - early adopters are generally willing to pay a premium, everyone else can wait for the price to drop and drool over YT videos.

since you want to spend money so much.  You can buy Kiowa for everyone you know and help Polychop grow.

[shagrat]

Am 31.5.2024 um 21:50 schrieb YoYo:

No any discount for the beginning? A little pity ...

No Early Access phase, so no discount...

[shagrat]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb ThorBrasil:

True! I'm not sure which one to buy: Kiowa or CH-47D. Since Kiowa doesn't have a discount, I'll wait for more information about the CH-47D, which will be released this month. Only then will I decide whether to buy the Kiowa or the CH-47D. In a year's time, Kiowa will be the same price, so there's no need to rush to buy it. It's better to wait and see what the community has to say before buying the Kiowa.

The obvious answer is: both.

The OH-58D KW will be close to finished, likely feature complete.

The CH-47F Chinook will be Early Access. While ED adds features and finishes the Chinook, you can learn the KW.

If you need to decide for either one, only, focus on your preferred mission set.

More the Recon/Scout type? Take the KW.

More the CSAR/MEDEVAC, SpecOps Insertion/Extraction and support roles type?

Wait for the Chinook.

[YoYo]

28 minutes ago, shagrat said:

No Early Access phase, so no discount...

Discounts are not only possible due to EA but also as launch release (like even F-4E for a while and also few modules in DCS history). 

This is what they decided, so only those who need it now will buy KW, the rest will wait with the purchase when they will need it. So no rush, no problem . You can buy it when you need it

[ThorBrasil]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

The obvious answer is: both.

The OH-58D KW will be close to finished, likely feature complete.

The CH-47F Chinook will be Early Access. While ED adds features and finishes the Chinook, you can learn the KW.

If you need to decide for either one, only, focus on your preferred mission set.

More the Recon/Scout type? Take the KW.

More the CSAR/MEDEVAC, SpecOps Insertion/Extraction and support roles type?

Wait for the Chinook.

Yes! Better wait because it makes no difference whether you buy the Kiowa now or later.

[shagrat]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb YoYo:

Discounts are not only possible due to EA but also as launch release (like even F-4E for a while and also few modules in DCS history). 

This is what they decided, so only those who need it now will buy KW, the rest will wait with the purchase when they will need it. So no rush, no problem . You can buy it when you need it

For me this is instant buy. I am actually thrilled they have it close to finished for release.

I really like the sneaky Scout/Recon and asymmetric warfare/COIN mission types.

[ThorBrasil]

47 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Discounts are not only possible due to EA but also as launch release (like even F-4E for a while and also few modules in DCS history). 

This is what they decided, so only those who need it now will buy KW, the rest will wait with the purchase when they will need it. So no rush, no problem . You can buy it when you need it

The F-4E is infinitely superior in features and will have even more features and had a launch discount.

[shagrat]

vor 1 Minute schrieb ThorBrasil:

Yes! Better wait because it makes no difference whether you buy the Kiowa now or later.

Well, it does, depending on your mission preference. Fly now, together with others, in a nearly complete module.

Or go through the Early Access years with the CH-47F, learning and utilizing features piecemeal as they get integrated. That's not a negative, did this with the Apache and it has its merits, as well.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb ThorBrasil:

The F-4E is infinitely superior in features and will have even more features and had a launch discount.

As an apology for the delays and release confusion... yep.

[ThorBrasil]

9 minutes ago, shagrat said:

As an apology for the delays and release confusion... yep.

Regarding the delays, the Kiowa was in development for 6 years and the F-4E for 2, if I'm not mistaken. So if you follow that line of thinking, the Kiowa should be given a discount.

[cfrag]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:21 AM, YoYo said:

Hi, the answer is very obvious - you can collect more users in the short time and earn more. What does it mean?

What makes you say that? You *maybe* can get the same number of sales in a shorter timeframe, and you may get the occasional impulse purchase. But DCS Helicopter modules are very seldom impulse purchases. Meaning: the number of people who will purchase the Kiowa is limited. And if your customer set is limited like I (without hard data to back me up) assert here, you are losing money if you give a discount. I can fully understand PC not going that route.

On 6/1/2024 at 9:21 AM, YoYo said:

If you give lanuch discount, for example to +1 week after the release (if no any pre order discount) more users will buy it in this period,

Yes -- and then, less people buy it at full price because they already own it (assuming a hard limit on the people who are interested in buying the Kiowa). The discount is a financial disincentive for PC, they are cutting into their own profit - especially if they have some form of revenue sharing that transfers the entire discount to them (meaning they'd have to compensate the full 10% while the others get their per-sale share unadjusted at 100%). For a specialty model like the Kiowa (similar to the trainer planes like MB, C101 etc.) there is next to no impulse purchase, only those people will buy it who definitely want that helicopter (the other, more impulse-driven customers would probably go Apache/Huey first). In such an environment, offering a 10% discount is the same as directly writing off 10% sales.

[EvilBert VR]

Just for your info guys:

Language is pretty likely to be German, but anyhow!

 

[YoYo]

51 minutes ago, cfrag said:

What makes you say that? You *maybe* can get the same number of sales in a shorter timeframe, and you may get the occasional impulse purchase. But DCS Helicopter modules are very seldom impulse purchases. Meaning: the number of people who will purchase the Kiowa is limited. And if your customer set is limited like I (without hard data to back me up) assert here, you are losing money if you give a discount. I can fully understand PC not going that route.

Yes -- and then, less people buy it at full price because they already own it (assuming a hard limit on the people who are interested in buying the Kiowa). The discount is a financial disincentive for PC, they are cutting into their own profit - especially if they have some form of revenue sharing that transfers the entire discount to them (meaning they'd have to compensate the full 10% while the others get their per-sale share unadjusted at 100%). For a specialty model like the Kiowa (similar to the trainer planes like MB, C101 etc.) there is next to no impulse purchase, only those people will buy it who definitely want that helicopter (the other, more impulse-driven customers would probably go Apache/Huey first). In such an environment, offering a 10% discount is the same as directly writing off 10% sales.

I will not agree. You look at it like an accountant, and I look at it like a sales and marketing specialist and project manager. In the case of IT projects - the project is to be financed as soon as possible, this is a priority. You can have a million dollars in a week or 2 years, which will you choose (of course a million is an example)? The answer is simple for me. You also don't know how the "Sale" works in the case of DCS, without having hard data, but I can suspect that it is quite large, even based on my experience and that of others. I think most of my friends bought modules at a discount, and I can count on one hand the number of friends who bought at full price. Personally, I never paid the full price, maybe for BS2 and A-10C (but those were CD releases!). Of course - those who have to will buy Kiowa immediately will buy it, but now the PC is in a rather special situation. They hit a publishing boom F-4E and CH-47. The CH-47 is on pre-order and the F-4E has already been released. Usually everyone plays with a given module for 2-3 months or more. At full price, these people simply will not buy the KW now and will wait either for another occasion (Black Friday?) or when they feel like flying it. The lack of a discount completely excludes these people now. It will be a cost, let's assume the 10% as you write, but now it will gain +20% more customers. Not worth it? Of course it's worth it. Don't forget about marketing too. More customers - means that some of them will attract more new customers if the product is good. These are further profits. And finally, DCS is not still the same number of customers. You forget about it. Some new ones are added every month, a new generation of DCS enthusiasts is growing (some of them are leaving too), and this includes helicopter enthusiasts. Why wouldn't I assume that DCS has, for example, 100,000 fans and this is a closed number? In a year there will be, let's say, 105,000 fans, part of them will buy KW at some point. So you can't assume that this is a tight set for profit sharing. 

The IT market is characterized by the fact that you want to have as many sales as possible at the start so that the project can be profitable, the rest will spread over time. The point is to start the next project as quickly as possible, and not worry about the profits from a project that will be financed in the long run. As I say, I understand the philosophy you represent, but only from the accounting aspect.

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

In the case of IT projects - the project is to be financed as soon as possible, this is a priority.

Um, yes and no. It depends on your refinance model and how much debt you have - you are talking about Net Present Value, and in general terms it is indeed better to get an income stream early to pay off debt early and to lower accumulated interest. A one-week or two week discount period, however, will not shift this significantly: two weeks is not an interest-relevant timeframe, and it becomes dangerously lopsided if you try to finance long-term debt with a short term gain - that additional sales that you generate come at a cost of a 10% total sales. If you start covering costs with non-congruent debt time frames (like here), you onboard a lot of risk.

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

It will be a cost, let's assume the 10% as you write, but now it will gain +20% more customers.

And I think that that is where our models do not agree. You may generate 20% more purchases short-term, in the first couple of weeks. BUT mid-term (all sales accumulated over 1 year), I think that you only get a maximum of 1% more customers, there simply is too little impulse purchases for the Kiowa (i.e. a 10% discount will not bring in many more customers, it merely hastens the purchase for those who would have bought anyway, but a couple of month later). So you buy 1% additional total sales over one year for a 10% loss of revenue on all sales in the initial (high-volume) weeks. This can work if unit sales volumes are high enough. I seriously doubt that Kiowa sales will be in that range, and I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

 

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

You can have a million dollars in a week or 2 years, which will you choose (of course a million is an example)? The answer is simple for me. 

That would indeed be an easy call. Unfortunately, we are not looking at something like this. Let me try and phrase it differently: how will a 10% discount lead to a significantly higher income of 1M USD? In our example: What are the effects of a 10% discount that generates additional sales in of 1M USD? Let's say the Kiowa sells for (discounted) 50 USD (to make number simple). To make 1M in additional sales they'd have to sell 20'000 ADDITIONAL units. The big problem here: they have to write off 10% on each and every unit they sell, including those they'd sell without the discount, plus the additional ones. So if (assumption) the 10% discount doubles the number of units moved during the weeks that this offer is on, PC looks at a cool 1M additional revenue. That's good. The problem: Since we doubled sales, that 1M USD additional revenue is purchased at 20% cost (2x10%) or 200K. Those are really bad numbers : you can get a 1M loan over 5 years for a lot less than 20%). [EDIT: remember that I'm assuming that the total number of sales will be near the same over a 1 year timeframe, with the discount you merely shift the sales to the first few weeks]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

The IT market is characterized by the fact that you want to have as many sales as possible at the start so that the project can be profitable, the rest will spread over time.

Some parts of the market doubtlessly are, and that is the reason for EA and similar sales vehicles in game/entertainment software. The reason these businesses strive for a quick turnover, however, has nothing to do with being IT itself, and everything with the finance/investment model that was chosen to fund the project. In other words: how the entire business case is structured, and how leveraged your finances are. If what you sell is financed through heavy debt, you should indeed strive to recover as much as possible as soon as possible - but NOT at any cost. My guestimate here, looking at the potential market, assumed elasticity of price and customer demand tells me that a 10% two-week discount at launch will cost PC more than a non-discount fueled one-year sales cycle. I don't have the numbers, just - like you state - but I've been in that (large-scale IT Project Management) Business for more than three decades, and I can make a couple of highly educated guesses. 

Edited June 2, 2024 by cfrag

[MAXsenna]

Why not wait and actually try it yourself before condemning it? Other than George and Peter it actually seem to work properly. Casmo seemed very pleased with it.
From what I‘ve seen in Casmos Videos, I anticipate it the first multicrew vehicle that I can actually use to its full potential as single pilot. 
And regarding the buttons count - you can simply use a modifier switch and use all the buttons on your hotas, or, more likely what I will do, just use the plenty buttons on my throttle, that I usually don’t need for helicopters.
(and btw. usually you don’t need all the binding options that exist - most likely some are redundant as always)

Haven't watched any videos yet. No need. I will get this day one in any case.
Hopefully the keybinds are pre-populated with keystrokes so I can easily make a VoiceAttack profile.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Hiob]

12 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Haven't watched any videos yet. No need.
 

I like watching videos before the release, especially when it is so close.  It increases the pleasant anticipation for me. And in this case, since Casmo (whose channel I liked already beforehand) actually flew the thing, they are particular insightful. 

I  can absolutely recommend watching some of them. (counters the bad mood spread by the „glass-half-empty“ crowd )

Edited June 2, 2024 by Hiob

[shagrat]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb ThorBrasil:

Regarding the delays, the Kiowa was in development for 6 years and the F-4E for 2, if I'm not mistaken. So if you follow that line of thinking, the Kiowa should be given a discount.

Neither is true. The F-4E was in development by Belsimtek, then "on hold", then Heatblur took over and so on.

EDIT The announcement by Belsimtek for the F-4E was in July 2014, so roughly 7 years ago. 

The release date was scrapped, after announcing and at the very day it should release after announcing it, again, delayed, again.

Those delays triggered a short prolongation of the discount period, because customers asked HB for refunds.

Edited June 2, 2024 by shagrat
Added the date.

[shagrat]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb YoYo:

I will not agree. You look at it like an accountant, and I look at it like a sales and marketing specialist and project manager. In the case of IT projects - the project is to be financed as soon as possible, this is a priority.(...), but I can suspect that it is quite large, even based on my experience and that of others. I think most of my friends bought modules at a discount, and I can count on one hand the number of friends who bought at full price.

(...)

The IT market is characterized by the fact that you want to have as many sales as possible at the start so that the project can be profitable, the rest will spread over time.

So you are extrapolating your own behavior and a statistical element consisting of "your friends in DCS" to the overall sales?! ...like "a marketing and sales specialist and project manager"? May I ask what you do for a living?

The important detail is, "sales" do not pay bills, revenue does. 

BTW the  professional IT market is characterized by a service concept, where customers license a product to use it and pay a monthly, yearly or long term fee. The longer the contract, the lower the yearly fee. This allows for a long term cashflow. Basically you can add the number of licenses already contracted per year for the next 2-3 years, substract the estimated service costs and revenue, to calculate the available development budget.

[YoYo]

28 minutes ago, shagrat said:

So you are extrapolating your own behavior and a statistical element consisting of "your friends in DCS" to the overall sales?! ...like "a marketing and sales specialist and project manager"? May I ask what you do for a living?

The important detail is, "sales" do not pay bills, revenue does. 

BTW the  professional IT market is characterized by a service concept, where customers license a product to use it and pay a monthly, yearly or long term fee. The longer the contract, the lower the yearly fee. This allows for a long term cashflow. Basically you can add the number of licenses already contracted per year for the next 2-3 years, substract the estimated service costs and revenue, to calculate the available development budget.

Lol, since when is DCS a subscription service or maybe you want to insult them for not being professional? Do you have Steam games sold as a subscription service (most, how many)? I think you have absolutely no idea about addons market or you are ignorant on the subject. If you also have any data on discounted sales of DCS modules vs normal sales also, please provide it or clearly state what you base your information on, otherwise you are just speculating and confusing the topic.

Also, I think it's worth ending the topic related to the discount, if they don't want to do it, it's obvious they chose this path with all the consequences for the pluses and minuses. I'll rather hold off and wait for a discount or when Id like to fly on Kiowa.

[ThorBrasil]

56 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Neither is true. The F-4E was in development by Belsimtek, then "on hold", then Heatblur took over and so on.

EDIT The announcement by Belsimtek for the F-4E was in July 2014, so roughly 7 years ago. 

The release date was scrapped, after announcing and at the very day it should release after announcing it, again, delayed, again.

Those delays triggered a short prolongation of the discount period, because customers asked HB for refunds.

 

In fact, the Belsimtek project was passed on to HB, but I bet that nothing was used by HB because at the time DCS did not have the technology to develop the F-4E that we know today. The project actually began to be developed about 2 years ago. Anyway! If Kiowa had the standard 30% discount on pre-orders, I would buy it on the first day. The end!

[shagrat]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb ThorBrasil:

In fact, the Belsimtek project was passed on to HB, but I bet that nothing was used by HB because at the time DCS did not have the technology to develop the F-4E that we know today. The project actually began to be developed about 2 years ago. Anyway! If Kiowa had the standard 30% discount on pre-orders, I would buy it on the first day. The end!

Nobody is forced to buy anything. I am just wondering why people start whining, if they don't get discounts, or other incentives?

A typical "marketing reaction" would be to adjust the standard price, accordingly and add a "discount" to get more initial sales...

[ThorBrasil]

6 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Nobody is forced to buy anything. I am just wondering why people start whining, if they don't get discounts, or other incentives?

A typical "marketing reaction" would be to adjust the standard price, accordingly and add a "discount" to get more initial sales...

I hope Kiowa sells a lot.

[shagrat]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb YoYo:

Lol, since when is DCS a subscription service or maybe you want to insult them for not being professional? Do you have Steam games sold as a subscription service (most, how many)? I think you have absolutely no idea about addons market or you are ignorant on the subject. If you also have any data on discounted sales of DCS modules vs normal sales also, please provide it or clearly state what you base your information on, otherwise you are just speculating and confusing the topic.

Also, I think it's worth ending the topic related to the discount, if they don't want to do it, it's obvious they chose this path with all the consequences for the pluses and minuses. I'll rather hold off and wait for a discount or when Id like to fly on Kiowa.

You were referring to "the IT market", not DCS or even Flight Simulations.

The Information Technology market for software is dominated by SaaS and long term Enterprise Agreements.

What you now talk about is the "Computer gaming market", specifically.

...and then there is a small subset of Flight Simulation games, further divided in civilian and combat/military flight simulation. Then there are a handful of products, of which round about one(!) does all era including modern and WWII combat aircraft. THAT is the "IT market" you meant.

I agree, everyone should be old enough to make his own decisions.

vor 5 Minuten schrieb ThorBrasil:

I hope Kiowa sells a lot.

I am sure it will.

[LorenLuke]

57 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

If Kiowa had the standard 30% discount on pre-orders, I would buy it on the first day. The end!

I mean, this is just the same for the Kiowa as for any other module. Once it has left pre-order/early access periods, it's full price.

[ThorBrasil]

1 hour ago, LorenLuke said:

I mean, this is just the same for the Kiowa as for any other module. Once it has left pre-order/early access periods, it's full price.

The Kiowa will not be discounted at launch. The price will be full. $70.