Shoot F/A-18C AIM-120C TWS

[atazar]

With the TWS I am not receiving «Shoot» until practically 15 miles at any altitude and by then, the enemies have already launched at least two missiles and I have to start my evasion. Most of us have not caught a real fighter, but there is something that does not fit the procedures when both planes, F-16 and F-18 load the same type of missile and receive different effective ranges.

[Tholozor]

The missiles will have different ranges depending on how fast the launch aircraft is going and the altitude the missile is fired from.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Tholozor

[Tomas9970]

As stated above. You have to go high and fast to get the best range. Going fast means that the missile gets more kinetic energy when launched. Rocket engines are more efficient at high altitudes which gives the missile more kinetic energy. Also lower drag means that the missile looses less kinetic energy per distance when traveling towards it's target.

[Oceandar]

If you mean against Viper then yeah Hornet has hard time head to head. You need at least as fast as the Viper. Jettison the fuel tank as soon as you enter the BVR. Get lighter as you can with ordnance (I mean no need to bring 10 Amraams, 6 x 120 and 4 9x should be good) . There's almost zero chance Hornet can win with A2G ordnances still attached. Its pretty draggy as 120 would likely catch you up even if you're defensive and going cold.

[atazar]

The missiles will have different ranges depending on how fast the launch aircraft is going and the altitude the missile is fired from.

 

 

I said at different altitudes, no matter 15,000 in MACH 1.5 than 30,000. "Shooting" always comes on 15 miles or less, when Viper has already launched two missiles. It must be recognized, it is the same missile with different effective ranges depending on the plane that fires it.

[Oceandar]

Its probably because the shooter launched the missiles just below the RMax but it supported by much greater kinetic energy and at higher alt than you. (Viper is a rocket with wings lol)

 

I saw the 104th tacview the other day when you're also on it. You're flying low against Yaga at higher alt than you that time. He launched at higher speed and the missiles still catched you even you're already gone cold. You just flied straight without doing a thing. You need to do zig zag maneuver to bleed the missile speed.

[atazar]

Its probably because the shooter launched the missiles just below the RMax but it supported by much greater kinetic energy and at higher alt than you. (Viper is a rocket with wings lol)

 

I saw the 104th tacview the other day when you're also on it. You're flying low against Yaga at higher alt than you that time. He launched at higher speed and the missiles still catched you even you're already gone cold. You just flied straight without doing a thing. You need to do zig zag maneuver to bleed the missile speed.

 

 

I went straight because I didn't receive a blocking and firing alert and Yaga was not yet within my reach ... XD. Yaga is one of the best players. After the signal, I only had 5 seconds to pray and evade. Thanks for the review time.:thumbup:

[Harker]

You shouldn't wait for a missile warning. If I'm up against an enemy that has either FOX-3 or long range FOX-2 missiles, I assume that a missile is coming my way, after a reasonable point.

That being said, the HUD DLZ cues are a little messed up at the moment, since they changed the AMRAAM's drag coefficients a few weeks ago; sometimes the DLZ on the HUD and the Radar page show different cues. But you can definitely achieve very long range kills, under the right circumstances. I wanted to test the new AMRAAM's max range and I went Mach 1.5, 50000 ft against a drone (no reaction to threat) at the same altitude and speed. I got 70+ NM of range, probably even more. Of course that's max range and going against a fighter it'd be a different story, but still.

[Cytarabine]

You shouldn't wait for a missile warning. If I'm up against an enemy that has either FOX-3 or long range FOX-2 missiles, I assume that a missile is coming my way, after a reasonable point.

That being said, the HUD DLZ cues are a little messed up at the moment, since they changed the AMRAAM's drag coefficients a few weeks ago; sometimes the DLZ on the HUD and the Radar page show different cues. But you can definitely achieve very long range kills, under the right circumstances. I wanted to test the new AMRAAM's max range and I went Mach 1.5, 50000 ft against a drone (no reaction to threat) at the same altitude and speed. I got 70+ NM of range, probably even more. Of course that's max range and going against a fighter it'd be a different story, but still.

 

I often find I am in range according to my radar scope but not on until hud thus I often launch before getting a shoot cue and it seems to connect when attacking moving (and evading) targets at a nose hot aspect while at 35k feet Mach 1 which are 30nm away.

[Harker]

I often find I am in range according to my radar scope but not on until hud thus I often launch before getting a shoot cue and it seems to connect when attacking moving (and evading) targets at a nose hot aspect while at 35k feet Mach 1 which are 30nm away.

Exactly. Also, keep in mind that the radar DLZ currently shows cues for Raero, Rne and Rmin, but not Rmax.

[atazar]

I have repeated a test, at 30,000 feet and MATCH 1.05, and I have not received "shoot" until 18 miles. I still think that at that distance we are already junk in front of the enemy.

Edited January 6, 2020 by atazar

[atazar]

Here you can see how I never have 'Shoot' when I am already being attacked by four Su-27s. I have to launch missiles outside the optimal range to get defensive and finish the job with AIM-9X

 

 

I only get 'Shoot' when I'm already 15 miles in LHAQ mode

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by atazar

[falcon_120]

Here you can see how I never have 'Shoot' when I am already being attacked by four Su-27s. I have to launch missiles outside the optimal range to get defensive and finish the job with AIM-9X

 

 

I only get 'Shoot' when I'm already 15 miles in LHAQ mode

 

 

 

 

 

Atazar, you need to use cranking as an approach method to reduce the distance at which any bandit can engage you, this will let you get closer to a high PK shot without being so exposed and trash enemy shots done at long range.

 

Here is some videos that will help you:

[Shuenix]

Have anybody made tests if the 120 behaves equal on F16 and F18?

I dont have the F16, so I can't do it.

 

Same altitude, same speed and same target.

 

Would be interesting to see.

[Cytarabine]

Here you can see how I never have 'Shoot' when I am already being attacked by four Su-27s. I have to launch missiles outside the optimal range to get defensive and finish the job with AIM-9X

 

 

I only get 'Shoot' when I'm already 15 miles in LHAQ mode

 

 

 

 

 

You are breaking off TWS long before the missiles go pitbull it seems so they are not getting mid course updates. Partly this is a bug as the elevation should auto track if automatic tracking is selected in TWS. With your number of AMRAAMs you could fire a long range AMRAAM at each which might hit but will at least give them something to think about, crank and then turn back when closer, fire a missile at each and then once they go pitbull disengage.

[atazar]

falcon_120 Cytarabine Thanks a million for the tips.

[takamba]

Just for reference, this is a screenshot from Wags TWS video.

 

He is going Mach 0.9, so he is slower then you, but he allready gets the shoot symbol at 22.7nm range.

 

I don't know whats going on in your case.

[falcon_120]

Have anybody made tests if the 120 behaves equal on F16 and F18?

I dont have the F16, so I can't do it.

 

Same altitude, same speed and same target.

 

Would be interesting to see.

Well hard to say, i have both modules and i can say that the amraam is deadlier when used from the f16c but that i think it is very much due to the massive accelaration of the viper, which allows me to shoot at M1.0-M1.25while on the hornet I normally only do M0.95-M1.1 unless im really empty of pilons and bags.

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

[Harker]

I did a test with the FA-18C, F-16C and F-15C. All at 50,000 ft, Mach 1.5, launch at 40NM, no matter if I got a shoot cue or not. In all aircraft, the missile reached a drone (head-on, same conditions) with the same speed, more or less. So I'd say that the AMRAAM performs consistently.

 

Of course, with the Eagle I could accelerate to Mach 2.35+, something that's a big advantage over the Hornet when it comes to max effective range and against an actual enemy fighter. You can't even dream of reaching Mach 2.3 at 50k feet in the Hornet.

[Ramsay]

With the TWS I am not receiving «Shoot» until practically 15 miles at any altitude and by then, the enemies have already launched at least two missiles and I have to start my evasion. Most of us have not caught a real fighter, but there is something that does not fit the procedures when both planes, F-16 and F-18 load the same type of missile and receive different effective ranges.

In the current version (2.5.5.41371) the F-18C HUD shoot cues don't match the Attack Radar LAR cue.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=258706

 

The bug/problem is fixed in the internal DCS build, so should hopefully be available in the next Open Beta build.

[atazar]

Compare it with my first test, a week ago. The range was 22 miles. I don't know what happened, but the effective distance has decreased significantly.

 

[Harker]

Compare it with my first test, a week ago. The range was 22 miles. I don't know what happened, but the effective distance has decreased significantly.

 

Nothing changed in the aim since December 20 though.

[Ramsay]

Nothing changed in the aim since December 20 though.

 

Agreed, but I'm seeing a change in behaviour in quick tests as well.

 

AFAIK the only change is the date/year and a updated Nvidia driver, however the HUD "Shoot" cue triggered when the TWS range "wound down" to Rmax (the 6 O'clock triangle) on the HUD, which it wasn't doing previously.

 

There's still a difference between the Attack Radar LAR Max Aero and the HUD's Max Aero diamond but the non/late appearance of the "Shoot" cue seems to have "magically" fixed itself ?

 

Performance of the AIM-120C itself is unchanged.

 

I can't reproduce the "missing" shoot cue by flying, but my old track file (recorded on the 21st Dec 2019), still shows the same faulty behaviour, so perhaps it has something to do with the mission RND seed ?

 

Very strange, :confused:

 

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:doh: It was user error, I was letting the Steering Dot drift outside the ASE Circle, so although the target was within Rmax, I didn't get the "Shoot" cue.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Ramsay
After looking at several of my own replays, I've realised it was user error, there was no fault.

[hornblower793]

I have just run a simple test with 2 AI Mig-29s coming at me at altitude (although I had a few thousand feet on them), and got the Shoot cue at about 22 miles

[Ramsay]

2. Do not rely on launch cue when to launch.

This isn't about when to launch, rather it's about when the HUD "Shoot" cue should appear.

 

ATM the HUD "Shoot" cue is appearing when the target's range "winds down" to Rmax, however two weeks ago it wasn't and either didn't appear or appeared late.