Track IR Vs VR in Knife Fight

[flameoutme]

I just got done watching 104th_maverick's most excellent demonstration of knife fight flying in the f-14, and I do recommend it to anyone. I *finally* get it about AOA. Thanks 104.

 

 

But I'm posting here about the realization that flying with Track IR gives the pilot unrealistic visibility compared to VR. I fly VR and it's impossible to crank my head 180 degrees and look down the axis of the plane.

 

My question is, do other VR pilots compensate somehow for that and how - the mirrors? I don't use them but maybe I should...

 

thoughts?

[Belphe]

I turn with my torso when looking behind. I suggest re-watching Top Gun ;P

[Larkis]

As VR you will allwys have a huge disadvantage with TrackIR-Pilots. Not only neckbreacking Movement but also smaller resolutions.

[AH_Solid_Snake]

To look straight backwards in VR I usually end up leaning my body to the left while looking over my right shoulder, that way you're looking down the left hand side of the ejector seat straight back over the tails.

 

So far from impossible and, arguably, more realistic :)

[Chaogen]

My Index does just fine with resolution and if you're in a merge, its not like the target is a single pixel. I also lean to the side and back so I can at least directly upwards in a turn fight.

 

The advantage I perceive from VR is that the 1 to 1 relationship with head movement gives me better SA to where exactly the bandit is in relation to my Aircraft and which way to maneuver. With trackir I could never take my eyes off the bandit to look at what my A/C was doing, since I would struggle to reacquire it, given that your head movement is so exaggerated. Not saying you can't learn to adapt to it, obviously guys like Maverick and others have done so, but with VR its more intuitive.

 

I think the real advantage with trackir is zoom, albeit just a tad unrealistic. I do have the zoom button bound, but it is unpleasant to use in VR.

[draconus]

I think the real advantage with trackir is zoom, albeit just a tad unrealistic. I do have the zoom button bound, but it is unpleasant to use in VR.

I used to have Z axis (forward/backward) in TiR assigned for zoom but recently after reading and trying VR I fell totally for fixed real fov instead and 6DOF. Still on TiR but with real fov (for my setup it's around 50 degrees) I got better feeling around the cockpit.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

I put a chair swivel under my seat cushion with positive stops at 30* each side of center and an adjustable friction for turn.

When I check six, I turn my whole body to the stop then look back. That way I still have positive Controll of rudders while looking aft.

Working good for me.

[draconus]

I can see how VR users would start to cheat in the future by turning the whole HOTAS with them and the chair. Pedals will be harder to move around ;)

[VC]

My Index does just fine with resolution and if you're in a merge, its not like the target is a single pixel. I also lean to the side and back so I can at least directly upwards in a turn fight.

 

The advantage I perceive from VR is that the 1 to 1 relationship with head movement gives me better SA to where exactly the bandit is in relation to my Aircraft and which way to maneuver. With trackir I could never take my eyes off the bandit to look at what my A/C was doing, since I would struggle to reacquire it, given that your head movement is so exaggerated. Not saying you can't learn to adapt to it, obviously guys like Maverick and others have done so, but with VR its more intuitive.

 

I think the real advantage with trackir is zoom, albeit just a tad unrealistic. I do have the zoom button bound, but it is unpleasant to use in VR.

 

VR has zoom too you know, two different levels of zoom even in DCS ;)

 

But basically this. 1:1 tracking is so intuitive it makes up for all the other perceived disadvantages. And looking around really isn't that hard, not like you're strapped in. I experimented with some head tracking a while ago but found the movement so counter-intuitive, especially with having to move your eyes in the opposite direction to your head to still be looking at the screen. I went back to using a HAT switch for view until I got VR.

 

In VR it's also so much easier to predict where a target will be, to reacquire if they e.g. go below your aircraft. It's 1:1, your brain does all the work for you. You judge their speed as they pass out of view, look over to the other side where you expect them to be and they come out right there.

[westr]

I find VR gives you better situational awareness

[Fri13]

IMHO ED should change the head turning capabilities based the G forces. More you pull, more limited your head turning is. With TrackIR it works easily by forcing Cassandra to forward, but In VR that can cause serious nausea, unless FOV is limited and narrowed so it can be turned to center.

 

The high G load should have far more dramatic effects visually, removing colors quickly, start blurring the edges of vision and shrink it etc.

But most important would be to disable head turning at high G-pulls, as easily quickly your head weights tens of kilograms instead just few (4.5-5kg + helmet +mask + NVG etc). and pulling 9G means your 4.5kg head weight is now 40kg. And you can't move that head without support.

 

Now, a fighter pilot doesn't experience same stress as racing car drivers do. Who can only reach about 5-6G in turns etc. But in some racing tracks they might do go from 0G to 5G in a second and do that 500-1000 times on one race, every few seconds even. And they don't have force pulling their heads backwards, but sideways. That is like fighter pilot would be performing 5-6G rolling for few seconds and alternate direction every few seconds.

 

And you wouldn't be there looking at your six. Why those should be changed that more G you pull, less you can turn head, meaning you need to look at given direction before you start your maneuver, suffer from limited vision etc, and then need to stop pulling high G's to look around.

 

And same for TrackIR or VR, or camera controls.

[Chaogen]

IMHO ED should change the head turning capabilities based the G forces. More you pull, more limited your head turning is. With TrackIR it works easily by forcing Cassandra to forward, but In VR that can cause serious nausea, unless FOV is limited and narrowed so it can be turned to center.

.

 

 

I get what your saying, but some of it you'll just have to write off as "This isn't real life". Head movement limitations is really going to mess people up. It's bad enough people get sick in VR with natural head movement, let alone desynced movement. I agree other effects could level the playing field and I like the blurred effect and colors. I have noticed if you turn your head any way but forward on a CAT shot, you black out for half a second. That said, I'm fine with no change too. I prefer to stay our of the merge anyway.

 

VR has zoom too you know, two different levels of zoom even in DCS ;)

 

Yes. That's what I was talking about. I have the VR Zoom mapped but unless I keep my head very still when using it, I can feel motion sickness starting to kick in. I have never gotten it from any other game, including the continuous walking movements ect, but the VR Zoom is as close as I've gotten. I also mostly use it in the cockpit, as opposed to finding a target.

 

I was just saying I understand why some people who have both prefer trackir. Zoom and frame rates. I personally won't go back and even ended up selling mine. The depth perception and ability to fly formation or do AAR isn't worth going back for.

[draconus]

I was just saying I understand why some people who have both prefer trackir. Zoom and frame rates. I personally won't go back and even ended up selling mine. The depth perception and ability to fly formation or do AAR isn't worth going back for.

Wait, you sold VR?!

[Chaogen]

Oh.. No,no.no. The trackir. Sold it to someone who had neither and was about to buy a new one. It was sitting on a shelf gathering dust.

[Harlikwin]

I find VR gives you better situational awareness

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I find WVR combat quite straightforward and "natural" with one MAJOR caveat. Spotting, which even with VR zoom is still inferior, and zoom in VR can be both disorienting and nausea inducing for some. I loose a fair amount of fights because I can't get eyes on in the servers without labels. On some MP server with air labels its 100% the other way, I never have issues because I can be cued to where the target is.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Harlikwin