Anton landing woes

[Hornetjock]

I think I have a reasonable grasp of this pilot stuff, having mastered the Spit, Mustang and Sabre - I find it impossible to land the A8. The gear is so stiff and springy that she will not transition from flight to ground roll. I have touched down with a babys kiss and still bounced or had the gear collapse. Over the fence at around 220, easing to around 160 for touchdown. I have tried flare and wheeling it on. Help please.

[grafspee]

I land D9 and A8 this way.

I just hang very close to ground and im letting to slow down while i m puling stick more and more so when plane finally touch down i have my stick fully aft, i keep ball in centre during.

Im just stalling very close to ground. Im not paying attention to airspeed.

Edited January 10, 2020 by grafspee

[Weegie]

I just tried the Anton after a long time away, I've been strruggling with the 109 BIGTIME!!

 

I found it very straightforward, as grafspee states, the thing I found with the Dora and the Anton is they has great energy retention so it takes a while to slow.

 

My normal method is threshold 200 or thereabouts with around 1500 rpm to reduce your sink rate, get close to the runway then gently come off the throttle and increase your stick back.

 

It needs to be 3 pointed with a flare, trying to hold it wings level like the Spit (or that's the way I do it) makes it hard to control IMHO

[grafspee]

I just tried the Anton after a long time away, I've been strruggling with the 109 BIGTIME!!

 

I found it very straightforward, as grafspee states, the thing I found with the Dora and the Anton is they has great energy retention so it takes a while to slow.

 

My normal method is threshold 200 or thereabouts with around 1500 rpm to reduce your sink rate, get close to the runway then gently come off the throttle and increase your stick back.

 

It needs to be 3 pointed with a flare, trying to hold it wings level like the Spit (or that's the way I do it) makes it hard to control IMHO

 

Compering Fw 190 and bf 109 vs spit/p-51.

Major difference is that p-51/spit has constant speed propeller which helps to slow down plane while in Germans planes when you pull throttle to low power range engine control unit will lower prop rpm(increase pitch of the blades and decreasing prop drag) this makes Germans planes slow a lot less then allied.

[Weegie]

grafspee perhaps you can educate me more I'm struggling a bit

 

In the Spit you set the RPM via a lever (I haven't flown the P-51 in yonks) and that holds RPM constant, regardless of throttle position (within the limitations of the pitch range). It does this by altering the prop pitch which alters the load on the engine.............correct?

 

So are the German aircraft not doing the same thing? If the German system decreases prop drag by making prop pitch finer, when the throttle is pulled back is that not the same idea?

 

As far as I'm aware there is not a way to disengage the control unit in the Dora or Anton like there is in the 109, or am I missing something here?

[grafspee]

grafspee perhaps you can educate me more I'm struggling a bit

 

In the Spit you set the RPM via a lever (I haven't flown the P-51 in yonks) and that holds RPM constant, regardless of throttle position (within the limitations of the pitch range). It does this by altering the prop pitch which alters the load on the engine.............correct?

 

So are the German aircraft not doing the same thing? If the German system decreases prop drag by making prop pitch finer, when the throttle is pulled back is that not the same idea?

 

As far as I'm aware there is not a way to disengage the control unit in the Dora or Anton like there is in the 109, or am I missing something here?

 

German planes uses adjustable pitch props controlled by engine control unit it will set proper rpm for certain ATA set by throttle, you can imagine it that throttle and prop in spit would be interconnected (late version of spitfires actually had this feature automatic rpm control)so when you add throttle you get more rpm if you retard throttle you get less rpm.

It requires lot less force to crank engine at 1600 rpm or lower then 3000 rpm when throttle is at idle position and this directly transfers to drag created by prop.

Yes in Dora there is no such an option

In A8 and K-4 there is, and it is adviced to increase rpm to max before landing in K-4 it will helps slow down plane.

[Weegie]

Thanks look like I need to do some more homework

 

Appreciated

[grafspee]

Take note that in A-8 and k-4 if you are in manual mode you are changing pitch of blade directly so there is a risk of exceeding max allowed rpm for engine so eyes on tachometer :)

This is the reason why new k-4 pilots loosing their engines after take off, by default prop pitch is set to manual, so they take off everything is fine during early stage but as soon plane pick up more speed prop rpm will go up and at some point it will exceed max rpm because prop is in fixed pitch mode.

[Art-J]

You're not alone - I've bought Anton on the last day of the sale, made only a handful of flights so far and have been surprised how different it is compared to Dora during takeoffs and landings. Floaty like a Spitfire and very bouncy if not flared just right. Very rewarding when touch down is smooth though - almost does the 2-pointer by itself then (I suspect your touchdown was not a "baby kiss" at all :D). Sadly, on my PC the plane is unable to save and run replay tracks correctly, so I can't evaluate my takeoffs and landings later.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Art-J

[Hornetjock]

Thanks for all the contributions. I will try to replicate your landing descriptions, however I think the modelling is wrong for real life basic pilot talent in WW2. They would have only got half or less back to the hangars! Shockies need adjustment for a softer ride IMHO.

[Weegie]

You're probably correct, but I remember Erich Brunotte, stating accidents were common. See the sticky on the D9 "Revisiting the Dora"

 

I know it's not really a comparison but a quote from Wikipedia on the 109

 

"At least 10% of all Bf 109s were lost in takeoff and landing accidents, 1,500 of which occurred between 1939 and 1941"

 

 

So although the Warbird models are tricky I don't think in real life that they were/are easy aircraft to master

[tflash]

I must say I'm not there yet! about 20 attempted landings ended in tragedy! I seem to have 3 issues:

 

- the aircraft is difficult to slow down, it seems as it has no drag! When I pull back the throttle it just continues at the very same speed. I have to maneuver to really slow it down.

 

- In the endgame above the tarmac I always have to big of vertical speed, it falls like a rock on the tarmac. I guess I am consistently too high?

 

- poor forward visibility due to the big nose and guns, which makes it difficult to assess your true height.

[grafspee]

First stabilize your approach,

Do one circle around airfield, do not cut throttle completely use 0.7ATA for slowing down,

Whne you slow down to 400kph extend flaps to take off position wait for 300kph drop flaps full and gear,

Make steep final so you can see run way, adjust throttle but do not cut it completely, just before touch down flare plane near the ground so you vertical velocity is 0 then cut throttle to 0 and hold plane above ground as long as you can, so when you touch down you will have stick almost all way back.

Good speed for final is about 250kph for me do not slow down more, fw190 will drop like a rock. After touch down hold stick back to lock tail wheel.

Edited February 29, 2020 by grafspee

[Art-J]

I'd rather opt for closer to 220 on final, as per manual. Otherwise the plane flares surprisingly well and in case of short runway rolling out of it becomes a different issue :D. Below 220 it REALLY drops, however.

 

Can't do much about poor forward visibility apart from curved or steep finals plus practice, practice, practice...

[grafspee]

I'd rather opt for closer to 220 on final, as per manual. Otherwise the plane flares surprisingly well and in case of short runway rolling out of it becomes a different issue :D. Below 220 it REALLY drops, however.

 

Can't do much about poor forward visibility apart from curved or steep finals plus practice, practice, practice...

 

I like to go a little bit faster, if im not focused 100% and plane slows down it starts skink rapidly :P

[tflash]

Incredible guys, with your advice (TO flaps to slow down, steep approach, not too slow, flare, ...) I managed to pull it off! And not just once, but multiple times in a row, so I can start working on consistency!

 

Many many thanks!

[Richard Dastardly]

If you need to slow down in a hurry you can just sideslip it too, very easy to slow it down too much doing that though! never had any issues on touchdown, that wide gear makes it a breeze if you don't drop a wing ( even if you do, honestly ).

[Yo-Yo]

I must say I'm not there yet! about 20 attempted landings ended in tragedy! I seem to have 3 issues:

 

- the aircraft is difficult to slow down, it seems as it has no drag! When I pull back the throttle it just continues at the very same speed. I have to maneuver to really slow it down.

 

- In the endgame above the tarmac I always have to big of vertical speed, it falls like a rock on the tarmac. I guess I am consistently too high?

 

- poor forward visibility due to the big nose and guns, which makes it difficult to assess your true height.

 

It's a good way to slow down - g-load. If you even perform combat speed approach the best way is to fly low and then perform an ascending turn to get your place at glideslope with 250 kph. Then you can lower flaps and gear and proceed as usual.

 

Sideslip approach is a good thing too.

[grafspee]

I would not do any high G brakes, you never know what kind combat damage having with you :P Loosing wing close to home not a good idea :P

[Whisper]

Like Yo-yo said, a good dose of sideslip will slow her down hard, if really you need her down and haven't managed in a more proper way :)

[grafspee]

Maybe im doing it wrong but side slip somehow don't slow my plane that i can notice any difference, for me bast way to slow down is to gradually deploy flaps, reduce power, increase engine rpm, sometimes i put plane in shallow climb, once i deploy flaps gear , i continue with descend.

[Whisper]

Well, I'm talking about a brutal kick on rudder inducing a severe sideslip. Californian style :)

This is an emergency measure that should be not used... like ever, or for at least 99.999% of landing attempts, imho.

But DCS is still a game and I use it from time to time (last one was actually yesterday :) ).

The correct way is what you describe, if I screw this part up, I use a higher G turn from downwind to final to lose more speed, if again that's not enough and situation calls for a landing, I sideslip.

[LeCuvier]

I'm a bit surprised about this thread. For me, the Anton is one of the easiest to land - only the Mustang is easier in my experience. To slow down, I cut the throttle and keep altitude or climb slightly. At 300 km/h I set takeoff flaps to slow down a bit more, then full flaps and wheels down. That makes her slow down very rapidly even in a descent with 10 or more m/s vertical speed. If necessary I do a slip with rudder fully one way and stick fully the other way. That makes me lose speed and altitude quite radically. Or I come in relatively fast and fly a turn to get down to 220 - 240 km/h. To avoid the visibility problem, I come in rather steep towards the threshold and then pull up to get below 5 m/s vertical speed and get visility of the runway left and right of me. Then work with rudder and ailerons to stay on a straight line (with a bit of throttle to stay manoeuverable) and pull up gently (real gently to avoid climb) to slow down and sink slowly to as much of a 3-point landing as possible. Only cut the power when I think I'm very close to the ground so there will be no bouncing.

[grafspee]

I'm a bit surprised about this thread. For me, the Anton is one of the easiest to land - only the Mustang is easier in my experience. To slow down, I cut the throttle and keep altitude or climb slightly. At 300 km/h I set takeoff flaps to slow down a bit more, then full flaps and wheels down. That makes her slow down very rapidly even in a descent with 10 or more m/s vertical speed. If necessary I do a slip with rudder fully one way and stick fully the other way. That makes me lose speed and altitude quite radically. Or I come in relatively fast and fly a turn to get down to 220 - 240 km/h. To avoid the visibility problem, I come in rather steep towards the threshold and then pull up to get below 5 m/s vertical speed and get visility of the runway left and right of me. Then work with rudder and ailerons to stay on a straight line (with a bit of throttle to stay manoeuverable) and pull up gently (real gently to avoid climb) to slow down and sink slowly to as much of a 3-point landing as possible. Only cut the power when I think I'm very close to the ground so there will be no bouncing.

 

Trick is that throttle cut cant happen, you may over cool engine and when you needed it, engine can refuse to provide any power, ofc in DCS it isn't modeled but in real life you don't want over cool as much over heat, and descending with throttle closed is simple way to get to this situation,

In DCS when you attempt to start engine with full throttle it will just spin up rapidly and you will crash or you don't if you retard throttle in time, in real engine will just not start.

Whne you add throttle rapidly when engine is cold engine will quit, im talking about carb engines like Merlin, bd605 probably react much better in cold conditions.

Most manuals says to keep power on in descending especial in cold weather, this is from p-51manual, When engine coolant temp drops below 60C engine may not respond to throttle.

Edited March 4, 2020 by grafspee

[LeCuvier]

Trick is that throttle cut cant happen, you may over cool engine.

I only cut the throttle for a few seconds to make it settle down. That short time will not have any influence on engine temperature. By "cut" I don't mean setting the engoine to "Off"; but to "Idle".

Anyway, my message is: the Anton is not a beast to land. It's one of the most docile WWII birds. It's only flaw is the lack of engine power (and maybe that's why she is so docile :))

Edited March 4, 2020 by LeCuvier