Apache vs. Hokum

[Yellonet]

Alright, now that we know that we'll some time in the future get our hands on both the AH-64 and the Ka-50, we can start the debate about which is the better chopper and who would go victorious from a duel :music_whistling:

 

So, that battle is on...$35M Apache vs. ~$15M Black Shark

 

Let the mudsli...debate begin!

 

 

Ka-50 should be the more agile of the two and with a more powerful gun.

AH-64 however has a much more mobile gun and with a seperate gunner that can concentrate fully on shooting...

[Jascha]

we can start the debate about (...) who would go victorious from a duel :music_whistling:

 

The more skilled guy... maybe? :smilewink:

[Yellonet]

The more skilled guy... maybe? :smilewink:

For arguments sake let's say that the pilots are the same person existing in two places at once due to some unfortunate dimensional rift in the time-space continuum.

[RvETito]

$18M Apache vs. ~$3M Black Shark

 

Care to share where did you get these numbers from? ;)

[Yellonet]

Care to share where did you get these numbers from? ;)

Well *coughwikipediacough*, not really.

Yes, I know it's not the most trustworthy source, but I just put it in there for some rough figures. Feel free to adjust them :)

[RvETito]

Oh no, the commercial part is not for me. I'm on the engineering :) But seems odd to me that one Apache costs like 6 Ka-50's..

[33rd_bratpfanne.]

You should concider that Development and manufacturing employees in the western world earn much more money than in Russia. Moreover who knows which Senator got some millions for signing a totally overpayed contract with the Industry?

 

S~

Brati

[Yellonet]

You should concider that Development and manufacturing employees in the western world earn much more money than in Russia. Moreover who knows which Senator got some millions for signing a totally overpayed contract with the Industry?

 

S~

Brati

Indeed, poor US tax payers :smilewink:

[TorwaK]

$18M Apache vs. ~$3M Black Shark

 

AH-64D Apache Longbow price is $32M-$35M, Ka-50N Black Shark price is $12M-$15M around depends on which avionic configration systems used on it. ;)

[Yellonet]

AH-64D Apache Longbow price is $32M-$35M, Ka-50N Black Shark price is $12M-$15M around depends on which avionic configration systems used on it. ;)

Thanks, updated my first post.

[GGTharos]

The apache would be on top during close-in situations ... agility means squat when it can't get you out of the way. Long range, teh apache has better detection systems ... etc etc. The Ka-50 has better climb rate, speed, and maneuver in general, but that aside, the AH-64 takes the cake with avionics and weapons systems.

However ... how pilots will use both in DCS remains to be seen ;)

[TorwaK]

Long range, teh apache has better detection systems ... etc etc.

 

It depends on situation if you ask me. Even lastest version Apache 64D Longbow has many avionic problems and high service costs as I read. Detection systems of Apache yes nice but against of what? Apache made for against throng Soviet tank battalions also LongBow radar able to follow several ground targets (up to 100) and engage 20 of them at the same time. If you ask me those war tactics stayed at past, nobody interest with it anymore except Usa.

 

I prefer Ka-50.

[therion_prime]

The Ka-50 will own the Apache from 10km with it's Vikhrs o' doom:

 

Apache -> :clown_2: :prop: <- Ka-50

[Yellonet]

Can the Apache use the stinger? If so that wouldn't be too good for the Shark.

[TorwaK]

Apache can fire Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm a2a missiles.

[Yellonet]

Apache can fire Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm a2a missiles.

Ouch :cry:

This sounds like Su-27 weapons against F-15 weapons all over again...

[Flyby]

pilot tactics will win the day

 

Once aware of a possible encounter, I think the winner is the pilot who plays to the weakness of the opponent, and to it's own strengths. If my opponent has sensors that can detect at longer range, certainly I would try to negate that advantage by masking, if possible. (Flat terrain might be a problem for me there). So, what else to consider, people?

* How to defeat a more agile helicopter foe?

* How to defeat a foe with fire-and-forget weapons?

But ya know what? I'm really more interested in how to survive in Black Shark when I'm flying in the FEBA where most of the threats I'll face are from the ground.

Flyby out

[therion_prime]

Apache can fire Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm a2a missiles.

 

But the Vikhr still has more range, altough it's not fire and forget ....

[TorwaK]

On the other hand Vikhr's actually developed for ground targets.

[MoGas]

were will see

[therion_prime]

According to Wikipedia, the #1 source of truth :P:

 

Armament:

 

1x 30 mm Shipunov 2A42 cannon

A variety of payloads including 23-mm gun pods (240 rounds each), 12xAT-16 VIKhR ATGM,Vympel R-73 (NATO: AA-11 Archer), S-8 rocket pods, S-13 rocket pods, High caliber missiles, 4x 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs, 500 l (130 US gal) external fuel tanks

[Yellonet]

According to Wikipedia, the #1 source of truth :P:

 

Armament:

 

1x 30 mm Shipunov 2A42 cannon

A variety of payloads including 23-mm gun pods (240 rounds each), 12xAT-16 VIKhR ATGM,Vympel R-73 (NATO: AA-11 Archer), S-8 rocket pods, S-13 rocket pods, High caliber missiles, 4x 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs, 500 l (130 US gal) external fuel tanks

I doubt we'll see the R-73 on the BS in DCS, it seems to be very uncertain if the Ka-50 actually can carry that perticular missile.

[Sundowner.pl]

Very comlex scenario.

 

Lets assume that the duel was not intentional - both helicopters are not equipped for A2A.

 

At long range the Apache has advantage - its Laser guided Hellfire missiles are guided automatically or by the gunner's hand (who's only responsibility is to keep the lock on the other chopper), plus the missile can be launched in LOAL mode, and the target painted only seconds before impact - that gives the opponent very little time to response.

 

Ka-50 have to rely on its automatic tracking system. Everyone of us who tried the Su-25T know that you can't fly, watch for threats, and keep the targeting systems on target at the same time, plus the Vikhr missile have to be guided all the way, giving the Apache more time to cover itself, or outmaneuver the missile (which shouldn't be hard).

 

In knife fight, the Apache have also an advantage of a cannon that can track its target quicker, than Ka-50 can turn, plus it may be slewed to pilot vision which is exceptionally good (there are no obstructions like in Ka-50 cockpit). Second - AH-64 Hydra missiles have programmable fuzzes, that may work similar as the A2A missiles, detonating near the enemy helo, raining tungsten shrapnels in its direction. And the third thing - the Ah-64 because of its sturdy rotor - can do maneuvers with lower G forces, and the pilot can allow himself to be less smooth on the controls, and just throw hiss helo into any attitude he desire.

 

To sum it up, on equal terms, the AH-64A will own the sky. So the Ka-50 pilots will have to think and change every encounter to their advantage. Be sneaky, attack from behind, from cover, at close, leaving no place to run or hide. If spotted at long range, just run, find a place to hide, and ambush the other guy.

 

 

When the Duel is intentional, the Ka-50 have the upper hand with its Archer missiles, that have more range than Sidewinders/Stingers.... yet the Sidewinder have enough powered flight time, because of the range that the enemy will be visible at - in that scenario, only thing that will matter is, who will see who first.

[Maximus]

it is going to be real interesting duel

[joey45]

i'll rather be in the shark... EJECT!!!!!!!!... 'check sig'.. but yeah "who will se who first"