Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 A recent video in youtube, not mine, that I link bellow, shows a user doing sudden inputs to the stick of the 109 K-4, and returning it to neutral. I know it's probably something that would be difficult to reproduce IRL, but still, the sudden stop in roll whenever the stick is brought to neutral appears to me as having almost no sense of inertia - the aircraft instantly stops rolling... Any ideas? Real numbers? Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 He's using keys there. That's why. S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share Posted February 11, 2020 He's using keys there. That's why. S! Even so... if IRL the stick was suddenly returned to neutral liek he is doing, would the aircraft respond with no inertia? Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrohde Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 What if the RL pilot counters inertia on purpose - as they usually do in aerobatics? PC: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X | MSI Suprim GeForce 3090 TI | ASUS Prime X570-P | 128GB DDR4 3600 RAM | 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit Gear: HP Reverb G2 | JetPad FSE | VKB Gunfighter Pro Mk.III w/ MCG Ultimate VKBcontrollers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razo+r Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 What if the RL pilot counters inertia on purpose - as they usually do in aerobatics? Then you should watch the control indicator in the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share Posted February 11, 2020 Then you should watch the control indicator in the video. Exactly my point too - he returns the stick to the trimmed neutral ( ailerons ), and not further opposite. It's indeed a very fast return, and I doubt it could be done so fast IRL, but still, the 109 is not an Extra :-) Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) My observations 1st roll speed is very very low 2nd at high air speed act like super dense material , probably dissipating any inertia in blink of an eye. There is reference. Plane is lighter but roll rate is 100 times faster. BTW stick in DCS looks like teleporting in to neutral position for me :P I think Fw190 is worth checking this is fast roller. I tried FW 190 it takes a little time to stop roll i used keyboard button for it. I tested Bf109 in mission editor in slow motion. Despite fact that ailerons teleporting back to neutral position when keyboard is used plane do not stop roll instantly, it takes some time but much less time then in fw190. Clearly visible when using slower time scale. Edited February 11, 2020 by grafspee System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Even so... if IRL the stick was suddenly returned to neutral liek he is doing, would the aircraft respond with no inertia?Looks like you never flew a simulator with keyboard. Of course controls return to neutral point instantly, so aircraft stops either instantly to whatever input it had before. I don't see any incoherence between what controls actually do and aircraft response, it's just how it is when you try to fly with a keyboard, it was like that 30 years ago in firsts FS stuff and it is now. The rare thing here is seen anybody trying to fly with keyboard nowadays. S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 ^ That's irrelevant and not related to the topic, however. The question is how fast the plane should react to ailerons being neutralized at a quick, constant rate, no matter what gaming controllers are used. I guess it depends on how effectiveness of 109 ailerons changes with speed in current flight model. On the vid we can see the plane diving with pretty high IAS, and, with aero forces being proportional to velocity squared, maybe at 700 ailerons can be that effective in damping the inertia, I don't know. For comparison one could try doing the same at 200-300 to see what happens. i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 @Art-J : good point! @grafspee : you're comparing and aerobatic airplane with the 109 K-4.... For sure nothing similar in terms of MoI... Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 @Art-J : good point! @grafspee : you're comparing and aerobatic airplane with the 109 K-4.... For sure nothing similar in terms of MoI... Like i typed later in my post, Testes both fw190 and bf109 both do not stop instantly when stick is back in neutral position additional to this when i used stick i could deflect ailerons much quicker then using keyboard plane's roll rate wasn't instant, it took some time to build up roll rate. System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) Like i typed later in my post, Testes both fw190 and bf109 both do not stop instantly when stick is back in neutral position additional to this when i used stick i could deflect ailerons much quicker then using keyboard plane's roll rate wasn't instant, it took some time to build up roll rate. :thumbup: I confess I didn't see your Edit. Ok, interesting. It's been a long time since I uninstalled DCS, so I really don't recall how it was in the 190D vs 109K4. This video the other day put me thinking about that again. Edited February 12, 2020 by jcomm Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 a long time since I uninstalled DCS You're going back and forth all the time. Why? The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 You're going back and forth all the time. Why? I never understand why I even install comabt flightsims when I don't like air combat, and I don't have the time to play it.... OTOH, the fact that these sims, specially DCS and another competitor, have long offered flight dynamics that can go well beyond what I can get out of civil flightsim platforms, other than a professional one I use and never uninstalled :-) makes me return, from time to time, re-install, play again for a while. They have huge footprints on my small SSD's and faint / old desktop, so, space for other projects often requires that I wipe my disks... And yes, I know there are cheaper disks these days :-) Now looking fwd for MFS - let's see what it can bring... Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Fair enough. S! The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 ^ That's irrelevant and not related to the topic:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: yeah, sure :thumbup: . S! "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xxx Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 A recent video in youtube, not mine, that I link bellow, shows a user doing sudden inputs to the stick of the 109 K-4, and returning it to neutral. I know it's probably something that would be difficult to reproduce IRL, but still, the sudden stop in roll whenever the stick is brought to neutral appears to me as having almost no sense of inertia - the aircraft instantly stops rolling... Any ideas? Real numbers? The 109 weighed around 6000 lbs, 2700kg. One of the smallest fighters. Unfortunately the flight model in DCS is lacking any inertia and the mass appears non existent, as pertaining to take offs and landings. DCS do some things really well and some things not so well. The M2k has input from the French air force and perhaps one reason why it's my favourite sim. The flight model demonstrates speed bleed in high alpha that's terrific! A very satisfying simulation. The 109 is a disappointment to me. Take offs and landings are like flying a paper airplane. It's all over the place! Just my twopenneth, but I think it needs some attention. Cheers. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]i7 Haswell @ 4.6Ghz, Z97p, GTX1080, 32GB DDR3, x3SSD, Win7/64, professional. 32" BenQ, TIR 5, Saitek x55 HOTAS. Search User Files for "herky" for my uploaded missions. My flight sim videos on You Tube. https://www.youtube.com/user/David Herky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) I already tested it, most of the mass is very close to rotation center. Bf 109 is not stopping instantly, it is just stopping very fast. When i take off or land bf 109 goes smooth with nor problems. I think problem is in lack of practice here. Edited May 13, 2020 by grafspee System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 the flight model in DCS This particular FM maybe, but the physics engine certainly does not. Fly the Mi-8 f.ex. for a while, and you'll notice there's plenty of inertia. The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 Inertia is present, it take time for plane to build up roll rate too System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 I don't see why you guys expect a very small aircraft to fly like a boat. I think this is a case of desk jockeys expressing their ''feelings'' as if any of them have any idea what a 109 should actually feel like @@ Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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