Reasoning for the Ka-50 cannon mounting.

[Yellonet]

That is quite definitely incorrect. The AH-64 will own close up (aiming is much, MUCH easier, and having to point the nose is a chore) and at medium ranges it'll do just fine too; the Apache's gun IS for spraying, but it has nothing to do with praying - this 'spray' is desireable since it will 'snag' more body parts when it comes to its intended target.

And don't think a single round of that won't do a number on a Ka-50 ;) Lastly, the AH-64 can perform a lot of lateral motion with respect to the gun while firing quite accurately. The Ka-50 can do some of that too, but it is far more limited.

Do -not- underestimate the turret. It's there because it works ... and the fact that the weapon was turreted on the Mi-28 should tell you something, too.

Bah, you're just an Apache fanboy :P

[Force_Feedback]

The gun is for spraying? So what, they make the barrel extra short, make the bullets smaller, less powder, heck, isn't there a random generator in the turret control software? What about against medium armored vehicles? Will AP rounds be more effective if they hit the soil in the vicinity of the target?

What's next FFARs as an effective way to destroy single tanks?

 

The only reason the Mi-28 was chosen was because uncle Mil has a shitload of its own choppers in the Russian inventory and has a 'name' (ie $$$), and because only 1st class pilots would be allowed to fly the Ka-50, while the mi-28 can offer a ride to second class pilots and trainees, it's also said to be less expensive to maintain.

[Avimimus]

It just says Mil designers were too busy making the Apacheski, while Kamov took a much more innovative and smart approach. :)

 

Having a limited range of motion on the cannon isn't a significant problem - remember the Mi-24P gun is completely fixed and is nevertheless very popular among pilots, much more so than the turreted gun of the Mi-24V. Probably has something to do with the HE effect of that big 30mm round. :) For an attack chopper, gun power and accuracy is what matters most and in this regard, the Ka-50 wins hands down.

 

It is interesting to note that the Mi-24P footage tends to show firing the GSH-30K at medium to long ranges (based on dispersion rates). The same is true when engaging with rockets where the pilots appear to be firing a salvo, watching the effects and the following up with a second or third one. The implication seems to be that the hind pilot is trained to fire at maximum range.

[EvilBivol-1]

That's true and moreover, it wouldn't be unusual to employ different weapons in volleys in a single attack run. For example, the pilot might shoot off an ATGM (typically a blast-fragmentation warhead) at long range, then follow up with a rocket salvo and a gun strafe. Of course it would depend on the target type, the anticipated threat and terrain factors, which would determine how close the chopper could be allowed in or how long the pilot could stay on the attack course.

[Malleus]

Some info here- Concept development.

 

Angles of deflection:

- azimuth- -2°30'...+9°

- elevation- +3°30'...-37°

 

So how does the pilot control the cannon movement? Can it be "guided" by the Skhval? I heard somewhere that the pilot controls the gun with the cyclic somehow, but that sounded a bit unbelievable...

[EvilBivol-1]

The only reason the Mi-28 was chosen was because uncle Mil has a shitload of its own choppers in the Russian inventory and has a 'name' (ie $$$), and because only 1st class pilots would be allowed to fly the Ka-50, while the mi-28 can offer a ride to second class pilots and trainees, it's also said to be less expensive to maintain.

I think the Mi-28N was chosen largely because of the conservative spirit of the Russian military. The Mi-28N is an evolution of a long-proved approach to Russian combat helicopter operations, while the Ka-50 is one big experiment. If in the USSR this might've been worth pursuing, considering the budget limitations today, they simply can't afford to experiment.

 

P.S. Watch your language. ;)

 

So how does the pilot control the cannon movement? Can it be "guided" by the Skhval? I heard somewhere that the pilot controls the gun with the cyclic somehow, but that sounded a bit unbelievable...

The cannon is slaved to the Shkval, which is slewed with a thumb-button on the cyclic. It can also be used boresighted.

[159th_Viper]

......The aircraft's agility allows the weapon control system to turn (the entire helicopter and) the cannon at the target acquired in the pilot's helmet sight....

 

As per my previous quote, is this feature specifically modelled?

[Yellonet]

As per my previous quote, is this feature specifically modelled?

So you can basically aim the whole chopper via the helmet sight? :shocking:

[159th_Viper]

So you can basically aim the whole chopper via the helmet sight? :shocking:

 

PWNED!!! :D

 

 

As I understood the text that is right: The Weapons Control System (Akin to Autopilot?) is slaved to the helmet-sight somehow - then again I might be waaay off-base here.......:)

[EvilBivol-1]

Sort of, yes. The helmet sight points the Shkval, which in turn points the cannon and, if the 'automatic turn to target' mode is engaged, the helicopter itself. I'm not sure off the top of my head if the target must be fully locked to initiate automatic turn or simply designated with ground-stabilization of the Shkval, but probably the latter.

[159th_Viper]

Excellent! :)

[AlphaOneSix]

I'll just say one thing about the cannon on the Apache and leave it at that. It's called the Area Weapon System for a reason. :D

[Force_Feedback]

No matter what you say, the Ah-64 still is the best, combat proven attack helicopter in the world, and although the Ka-50 is more agile, and can dance in the skies, the Apache can carry 16 Hellfires to finish off 16 tanks or other vehicles.

[Sundowner.pl]

... although the Ka-50 is more agile, and can dance in the skies...

hmm... and what makes you say that ? It's like some weird Tibetan mantra. Some people forget that the Ka-50 by itself is two and a half ton heavier than the AH-64 :smilewink:

 

And from what I remember Apache rotor spins way faster than Hokums, making it more responsive to sharp stick movements which in case of Ka-50 can result in blades collision. The only advantage the Ka-50 has over the AH-64 is the Vne, which is actually not an issue, since you need some space to achieve it.

[MBot]

One big advantage of a turret that should not be forgotten is the ability to quickly suppress a pop-up threat while being relative free to maneuver. I for one would absolutely love to have the ability to quickly put some 30mm rounds in the direction of a guy with a Stinger that just appeared next to my chopper while actually being able to maneuver out of there.

[Mugatu]

Can someone post a video of the KA-50 showing it's manouverability or shooting at a target at 90deg to the direction of flight be interesting how much praying is going on :)

 

All the ones I've seen are pretty tame even compared to the Mi-28 or are they holding back for a reason?

[Mugatu]

Not to mention doing it on the ground while your getting out of a hot situation.

 

One big advantage of a turret that should not be forgotten is the ability to quickly suppress a pop-up threat while being relative free to maneuver. I for one would absolutely love to have the ability to quickly put some 30mm rounds in the direction of a guy with a Stinger that just appeared next to my chopper while actually being able to maneuver out of there.

[britgliderpilot]

One big advantage of a turret that should not be forgotten is the ability to quickly suppress a pop-up threat while being relative free to maneuver. I for one would absolutely love to have the ability to quickly put some 30mm rounds in the direction of a guy with a Stinger that just appeared next to my chopper while actually being able to maneuver out of there.

 

I'm not sure I could maneuvre the helicopter out of the way AND aim the turret at the same time . . . .

 

Kamov have done a lot to ease pilot workload, but there's only so much you can do on your own.

 

Bottom line, if a Stinger magically appears next to you, you've more or less had it anyway.

[Sundowner.pl]

Umm.. aiming Apache turret is as easy as turning your head into the target - your observing the threat anyway, so as well you might squeeze the trigger :smilewink:

[britgliderpilot]

Umm.. aiming Apache turret is as easy as turning your head into the target - your observing the threat anyway, so as well you might squeeze the trigger :smilewink:

 

Does the pilot get a helmet-aiming device on the Apache as well as the gunner?

 

If so, I guess you could scratch the workload issue as workable :)

Still, I remain unworried in my Ka50. If a Stinger does pop up and I see him . . . it's flare-spamming time, you carry enough of the things.

 

 

Is it just me, or is the theme of the day finding ways to get shot down in your Ka50? ;)

[EvilBivol-1]

One big advantage of a turret that should not be forgotten is the ability to quickly suppress a pop-up threat while being relative free to maneuver. I for one would absolutely love to have the ability to quickly put some 30mm rounds in the direction of a guy with a Stinger that just appeared next to my chopper while actually being able to maneuver out of there.

There is a youtube video where an Apache crew is engaged from a ridge off their left and you can hear the comms as they look for the shooter and maneuver the helicopter at the same time. The camera is underneath the chopper and shows the gun swiveling around as (probably) the gunner is trying to locate the threat. They quickly spot a smoke trail and manuever on it, firing off a rocket.

 

It's pretty unlikely that a Ka-50 pilot would've been able to do all that. His best bet would probably be to start junking away and firing flares to avoid taking on any hits. The area would then be "worked up" with a returning gunship group later, by which time the enemy may or may not be there.

 

However, there are tactics. For example, Russian helicopters never flew alone and it was usually the wingmen than would spot the threat and turn to suppress it. This was generally effective, but then there are counter-tactics. :) Often the enemy ambushed the flight enroute, attacking the last chopper in the formation.

 

There is nothing that beats the Apache's ability to point the cannon where necessary right NOW.

[Yellonet]

Is it just me, or is the theme of the day finding ways to get shot down in your Ka50? ;)

It's not just you, the Apache fanbois don't like anyone saying that the Ka-50 could kick it's ass :megalol:

[AlphaOneSix]

Does the pilot get a helmet-aiming device on the Apache as well as the gunner?

 

 

Yes, he does.

[AlphaOneSix]

It's not just you, the Apache fanbois don't like anyone saying that the Ka-50 could kick it's ass

 

 

For the record, I think the cannon on the Ka-50 is just fine, and I don't think I'll miss a turret-mounted cannon.

 

Also, trying to argue that one aircraft is better than another in all (or even most) situations is silly, because so much depends upon circumstances.

[159th_Viper]

 

Also, trying to argue that one aircraft is better than another in all (or even most) situations is silly, because so much depends upon circumstances.

 

Now there's a sensible ststement right there - Agreed 100% :)