159th_Viper Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 And therein lies the problem...........what will satisfy one (200 pages of essentials) will not satisfy another........Personally I want the whole manual as a reference. Why? If it was not important it would not be in there in the first place......! Personally I will be printing the manual myself at release. As for ED releasing a printed manual.....I'll be very surprised. After all, a .pdf file is so much easier and more importantly cost-effective ;) Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
Boberro Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 Yes you're right, one prefer 200 pages, another guy 600, ect. The best will be IMO whe you print self manual. If you wanna example only Ka-50 pilot exercises you'll print only this, if you wanna whole manual you'll print all pages. Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ
Haegar Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 And therein lies the problem...........what will satisfy one (200 pages of essentials) will not satisfy another........Personally I want the whole manual as a reference. Why? If it was not important it would not be in there in the first place......! Personally I will be printing the manual myself at release. As for ED releasing a printed manual.....I'll be very surprised. After all, a .pdf file is so much easier and more importantly cost-effective ;) I really don't want to print 200, 300 ... 600 pages by myself. BS is not a "eight key ego shooter", it demands a appropriate manual - and a PDF is not appropriate.
VMFA117_Poko Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 I really don't want to print 200, 300 ... 600 pages by myself. BS is not a "eight key ego shooter", it demands a appropriate manual - and a PDF is not appropriate. Maybe most of pages printed in one colour (black), some of them with important photos + cover (rear/back) in 4 colours (CMYK), mat paper around 100g could be a solution to drop cost. Other important question is how many DCS:BS will be released? More units = less cost per one. Promise to print manuals of other DCS modules in the same company in near future can give another drop. But isn't it better how this is today with LockOn manual. Who can pay more for printed version can order it on lockon.ru. Not so reach eastern Europeans may avoid additional cost.
leafer Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 Call me a tree hugger but forget hefty manual and spend the money on more important thangs: Like advertising!!! Seriously, hombre, how many people read manuals beside a handful of grognards? This stuff will put a professor to sleep. Not to mention how many people are willing or can afford to fork the kind of cash to make including hefty manual profitable for ED. Look it. If you want manual then print it and let the rest of the people buy this product at affordable price. If you aren't willing to print it, then you don't really want it that bad. ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
RedTiger Posted November 13, 2007 Author Posted November 13, 2007 Call me a tree hugger but forget hefty manual and spend the money on more important thangs: Like advertising!!! Seriously, hombre, how many people read manuals beside a handful of grognards? This stuff will put a professor to sleep. Not to mention how many people are willing or can afford to fork the kind of cash to make including hefty manual profitable for ED. Look it. If you want manual then print it and let the rest of the people buy this product at affordable price. If you aren't willing to print it, then you don't really want it that bad. Yikes! I hope you're kidding about not reading the manual! In a sim as detailed as this, the "handful of grognards" who read the manual are going to be the "handful of people who know how to get the helo off the ground". Trust me, if this is half as detailed as Falcon 4 (and from the look of it, it looks like it will exceed that level of detail), you WILL be reading the manual. The alternative will be admiring the box cover art on the DVD case. ;) When I was learning F4AF I weighed all my options on how handle that 700+ page brick. All the copy shops wanted a letter from LP giving permission for me to copy it. I contacted LP and they were nice enough to do this if I needed it. I tried printing it myself but stopped at about page 200 because I ran out of ink! I tried running the sim in Window mode so I could read the PDF, but this caused the text in the cockpit to be unreadable -- particularly the ICP. In the end, I just got really good at memorizing the objectives of the training missions. I would read them before on the PDF and then immediately run through them. I think a PDF is fine. A separate printed manual available for extra $$$ is a good option too! EDIT: If ED is kind enough to include training tracks for each and every system, the need for a paper manual will be reduced. I just hope that updating the sim with patches doesn't bork up the tracks like it does in Lockon.
britgliderpilot Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 Call me a tree hugger but forget hefty manual and spend the money on more important thangs: Like advertising!!! Seriously, hombre, how many people read manuals beside a handful of grognards? This stuff will put a professor to sleep. Not to mention how many people are willing or can afford to fork the kind of cash to make including hefty manual profitable for ED. Look it. If you want manual then print it and let the rest of the people buy this product at affordable price. If you aren't willing to print it, then you don't really want it that bad. I'll have to disagree on that one. You are really, really going to need the manual for this. REALLY need it. Printing a manual the size of the current Black Shark manual isn't really an option. I did once print a Falcon 4 manual, and swore I never would again. ED currently sell a printed manual for Flaming Cliffs, so there's no reason why they couldn't produce one for Black Shark as well. Whether they sell it with Black Shark as default is up to them . . . personally I'd make any buyer voluntarily delete it from the options list if they wanted to save the money. It really is that crucial. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
RedTiger Posted November 13, 2007 Author Posted November 13, 2007 Whether they sell it with Black Shark as default is up to them . . . personally I'd make any buyer voluntarily delete it from the options list if they wanted to save the money. It really is that crucial. LOL! I just get this funny image of someone who bought it without the manual and then returns it because its "unplayable"! :lol:
leafer Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 Urgh! I kept thinking BS will be boxed up and on store shelves and that's why I thought a hefty price that comes with including gigantic manual will turn away potential customers. Not to mention no retail store will stock the game. Seriously, will I really have to read manual? sigh... ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
VMFA117_Poko Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 A manual if anything should be an optional accessory. I myself would probably rather, like leafer to leave the manual in the tree. do you know how many tonnes of carbon emmissions it takes to make 1 manual ?(...)Stop that :lol:! You're one of those (me too) who warm climate by using pc. Anyway I'm with You - it should be an option.
eleazar Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 Em.. talk about DVD, if possible.. will we have collector's edition ??(i think most of the ppl here will buy this .... hahah) XD
Nordic Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 Manual as an option sounds good to me. I definately want to have a printed version. It's a must have.
MBot Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 A printed manual is definitely a must. But printing the manual at your print shop is incredible expensive, so I'd rather buy it a bit cheaper (because of serial production) from ED and even let them make a small profit of it. On the other hand I understand that a manual will make the game much more expensive, scaring away potential customers. I think the best solution would be two editions. A normal one and a delux edition, complete with a nice manual, a small binder with laminated checklists (I guess that would be very usefull) or even a foldable map. For that I would be willing to pay double price.
Yellonet Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 A printed manual is definitely a must. But printing the manual at your print shop is incredible expensive, so I'd rather buy it a bit cheaper (because of serial production) from ED and even let them make a small profit of it. On the other hand I understand that a manual will make the game much more expensive, scaring away potential customers. I think the best solution would be two editions. A normal one and a delux edition, complete with a nice manual, a small binder with laminated checklists (I guess that would be very usefull) or even a foldable map. For that I would be willing to pay double price.Just like the manual they did for Lomac then... I've got #47 :D i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
leafer Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Did you hear George Bush's solution to Global Warming? Everyone turn their AC units on high. all at the same time. That sounds about right. :D ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
192nd_Erdem Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Yeah, please include a manual in the CD/DVD box this time. I can't be bothered to print that 100+ page manual by myself, and reading the manual from monitor screen is such a pain.
VMFA117_Poko Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Yeah, please include a manual in the CD/DVD box this time. I can't be bothered to print that 100+ page manual by myself, and reading the manual from monitor screen is such a pain.Listen. Can't You order it directly in ED? Everyone will have to pay much more for it. We in eastern Europe earn less money. It's not fair.
192nd_Erdem Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 I don't want to, why can't they include it in CD/DVD? If it's 5$ more, make it 5$ more. You're talking like you buy a ED product every month. Don't buy 2 packets of cigarette and save yourself the initial BS frustration :) If they make the manual optional, we'd have to pay much more for it because of the smaller volume.
RedTiger Posted November 14, 2007 Author Posted November 14, 2007 This topic of paper manual vs. pdf manual has got me thinking. It'd be interesting to see just how much more it would cost if a manual were printed. For example, when I bought F4AF, it was about $30 IIRC. This was for the CD and a small "starter guide" that gave the basics on how to use all the weapon systems. Now, to me, $30 isn't exactly a "bargain bin" price. So I paid $30 for no manual. I wonder how much it would have cost if they went old school and included a binder with the manual. I would have gladly paid $10, $20, or possibly $30more for a printed manual. Also, take a look at this website: http://www.hpssims.com/ I've purchase a couple wargames from them before. Their games are made on a shoe string budget, hence they are rather pricey for what they are worth so the company can break even or make a profit. Guess what...for $50 you don't get a printed manual either! Just a PDF. So you have this website thats been making these expensive games for 10 years that are probably even more nitch than flight sims and they have managed to stay in business. It makes think that if ED charged $50+ for a DCS title just so they could get a manual, they'd probably be profitable. It wouldn't be fair to our Easter European friends, but ED could probably stay in business even if they did this.
Yellonet Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Flanker 2.0 came with a IMO perfect Manual, not big enough to scare anyone awy but big enough to include evertying vital to playing the game and more. It's 257 pages. Good work mr. Norman! :) i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
Legolasindar Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 First sorry for my english, i used online traductor. ED said it will launch a series of simulators high realism. So what would be more logical that comes bundled with the simulator very extensive a manual explaining in detail the simulator, aircraft, weapons systems and countermeasures, tactics, and in short everything needed to make the best use of your product . On if it has to be in PDF or paper, it would be logical that it was printed on paper, but as this would increase the cost of production and therefore the final price of the product would require an assessment. I hope I can enjoy it printed on paper. On the other side would be a great detail that was translated (at least in a PDF) to the different languages most common). These are English, French, German, Italian, Russian and of course my second language Spanish (which I am sure forgetting some language). I realize that this work is very extensive, but ED announced a series of high-level simulators and realism. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Cavallers del Cel - Comunintat Catalana de Simulació http://www.cavallersdelcel.cat
RedTiger Posted November 14, 2007 Author Posted November 14, 2007 Flanker 2.0 came with a IMO perfect Manual, not big enough to scare anyone awy but big enough to include evertying vital to playing the game and more. It's 257 pages. Good work mr. Norman! :) I'll second that. The Flanker 2.0 manual is good. I recently re-installed Flanker 2.51 for fun and I was enjoying reading the manual.
Boberro Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Yes, manual of Flanker was good, I've got it in my polish language so I was so happy :D Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ
EvilBivol-1 Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 I can't be bothered to print that 100+ page manual by myself, and reading the manual from monitor screen is such a pain. 100?! Try 600-700. ;) This is in no way official, but I don't see ED putting a printed manual in the box. I would guess the manual will be sold separately for those wanting the paper copy. Again though, this is only my guess right now. - EB [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer. The Parable of Jane's A-10 Forum Rules
RedTiger Posted November 14, 2007 Author Posted November 14, 2007 100?! Try 600-700. ;) Thats what I was thinking! It seems like there's some confusion on what a manual will be like for a sim this detailed. I was thinking 600 pages as a minimum! If this thing is as complex as it looks, you'll be thankful for those pages. :) This is in no way official, but I don't see ED putting a printed manual in the box. I would guess the manual will be sold separately for those wanting the paper copy. Again though, this is only my guess right now. If ED at least offers a separate print copy you can buy, thats already more than most companies offer.
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