Does Lasing help precision like for F16c ?

[toutenglisse]

I have this question since TGP has zero entrance in F/A-18c early acess guide.

 

In F16c it's clearly written that lasing with TGP helps for bombing precision in CCIP / CCRP etc... (page 154 - laser ranging).

 

But with Hornet does lasing help the same way or not ? Maybe laser ranging fonction is separate from TGP in hornet ?

Thanks.

[Notso]

I have this question since TGP has zero entrance in F/A-18c early acess guide.

 

In F16c it's clearly written that lasing with TGP helps for bombing precision in CCIP / CCRP etc... (page 154 - laser ranging).

 

But with Hornet does lasing help the same way or not ? Maybe laser ranging fonction is separate from TGP in hornet ?

Thanks.

 

IRL it absolutely does. No clue how it’s implemented in DCS.

[LastRifleRound]

I have this question since TGP has zero entrance in F/A-18c early acess guide.

 

In F16c it's clearly written that lasing with TGP helps for bombing precision in CCIP / CCRP etc... (page 154 - laser ranging).

 

But with Hornet does lasing help the same way or not ? Maybe laser ranging fonction is separate from TGP in hornet ?

Thanks.

 

Yes. Bombing in AUTO smaller targets, if laser isn't active when TDC depressed, bombs have a tendency to fall long. You can also see the effect by tracking a target with the TPOD, noting it's distance in the hud, activating the laser and hitting TDC again.

 

Seems to use the same logic as the A10. Affect most notable on vehicle-sized targets.

[TomCatMucDe]

Yes. Bombing in AUTO smaller targets, if laser isn't active when TDC depressed, bombs have a tendency to fall long. You can also see the effect by tracking a target with the TPOD, noting it's distance in the hud, activating the laser and hitting TDC again.

 

Seems to use the same logic as the A10. Affect most notable on vehicle-sized targets.

 

I guess the question is regarding dumb bombs nad not LGBs. Is accuracy improved for those as well?

[toutenglisse]

Thanks for sharing this. With F16c I clearly see dumb bomb precision is better in both CCIP and CCRP modes when lasing.

I'll try with hornet. Interesting to know that it's increasing precision IRL.

 

Also I didn't know that it could benefit to precision with A10c (the flight manual do not say anything about that, contrary to F16c manual).

 

And yes my question is regarding both auto and CCIP dumb bomb precision with Hornet.

[toutenglisse]

Yes. Bombing in AUTO smaller targets, if laser isn't active when TDC depressed, bombs have a tendency to fall long. You can also see the effect by tracking a target with the TPOD, noting it's distance in the hud, activating the laser and hitting TDC again.

 

Seems to use the same logic as the A10. Affect most notable on vehicle-sized targets.

 

I had repeatable results : same approach line, speed stable with ATC at 370kn, alt 6000 feet, mk82 auto mode against static BTR80 locking it using TGP point track. Without lasing consistently a bit too long, with lasing consistently spot on.

Thanks.

[Harker]

I had repeatable results : same approach line, speed stable with ATC at 370kn, alt 6000 feet, mk82 auto mode against static BTR80 locking it using TGP point track. Without lasing consistently a bit too long, with lasing consistently spot on.

Thanks.

Thanks for testing and posting back. It's pretty cool that it appears to be implemented.

[Notso]

Thanks for sharing this. With F16c I clearly see dumb bomb precision is better in both CCIP and CCRP modes when lasing.

I'll try with hornet. Interesting to know that it's increasing precision IRL.

 

Also I didn't know that it could benefit to precision with A10c (the flight manual do not say anything about that, contrary to F16c manual).

 

And yes my question is regarding both auto and CCIP dumb bomb precision with Hornet.

 

Yes, IRL - having laser ranging when designating for dumb bombs is ALWAYS the most accurate solution in both CCIP and AUTO. By using the laser, you are solving the slant range part of the bombing triangle with the most precision possible. The next most accurate ranging source would be the radar in AGR where the radar is firing through the pipper. The tertiary ranging source with lesser accuracy would be simply using the system altitude to compute the bombing triangle. It will get you close but not likely to get a shack.

 

The above ranging methods are also used to increase accuracy for the A/G gun (strafe) and rockets and such.

 

Again, all of the above applies to RL. I haven't done enough experimentation to know whether DCS simulates this very well or not. So YMMV.

[Notso]

I had repeatable results : same approach line, speed stable with ATC at 370kn, alt 6000 feet, mk82 auto mode against static BTR80 locking it using TGP point track. Without lasing consistently a bit too long, with lasing consistently spot on.

Thanks.

 

That's good to know. Has anyone tested whether it also works in CCIP mode or guns mode? Is there any way to slave the TGP to the CCIP pipper or the gun/rockets pipper?

[toutenglisse]

That's good to know. Has anyone tested whether it also works in CCIP mode or guns mode? Is there any way to slave the TGP to the CCIP pipper or the gun/rockets pipper?

 

No it doesn't seem to work, which seems normal because there is no slave mode to piper (as it is now with actual lightening pod) - You can't shoot laser if not in Atrack or Ptrack mode and in these modes TGP center is static.

I see a recticle ("RTCL") button but doesn't seem functionnal (I'll watch again Wags' video about TGP to see if he talks about it).

 

EDIT : in Wags' 3 targeting pod videos there is only this mantion about reticle : "(adding)...some different reticles and some other item that further flush it out". I think RTCL button will affect only TGP reticle symbology ?

I also think a mode to slave TGP to CCIP reticle may be part of remaining pointing modes to be added.

Actually CCIP with hornet seems very precise, even if there is a big difference between target's altitude and altitude of the point used for radar altitude calculation. Maybe this will be degraded to feature a more precise CCIP with lasing ?

Edited April 22, 2020 by toutenglisse
in post

[parxuk]

Didn't realize it would make any difference to dumb bombs so thanks for the heads up :thumbup:

[Sniper175]

Gives the systems a better computation of range of tgt, thus better drops. Science :thumbup:

[Fri13]

But aren`t the laser marker and TGP range meter two different things?

 

Yes, you need to switch mode from designator to ranging, then you get slant range for the target.

 

ARBS does this by calculating the angle rate and is most accurate method, but requires good contrasts lock.

targeting pods does use laser ranging and sensor angle for target position to calculate accurate solution, but needs good weather and good laser return.

Radar is least accurate measured, but works almost in any weather as it see in large area of range.

 

In DCS it is not simulated how laser echoes and gets false returns, how laser get blocked by smoke grenades, rain, mist etc weathers change radically performance etc etc.

 

Almost all sensors in DCS are way too reliable. But that is the point of the study Sim, that you get to train and not to problem solve....

[LastRifleRound]

What effect should an activated laser have on dumb bomb drops? And why?

 

Specifically, the way it's modeled in DCS, if you lock a target you are technically locking the ground behind your target. Without any sort of active measuring like radar or laser, the aircraft draws an imaginary straight line from your aircraft straight through the target to the ground and uses that as your slant range.

 

Lasing updates the slant range to stop that line at the target.

 

In real life, LITENING uses angle-rate information to plot a solution in the absence of lasing, so accuracy without lasing wouldn't always be falling long like it does in DCS, but it's still less accurate than lasing.