Channel Map. First impressions.

[Holbeach]

Holbeach you are well wide of the mark; there are plenty of areas that reasonably accurately the layout and extents of the urban areas referenced against a 1940's timeframe. You have taken one town, towards the edge of the map that has not yet been trimmed to prototypical limits and made that a measure of the entirety; that's not only lazy but to then post with as much vitriol as you did we can only assume that you have some sort of pre-formed issue with this map or ED.

 

 

More than one town I think.

 

It's an assessment and feedback to the makers, based on the fact that I lived and worked there most of my life.

 

Take Eastbourne as an example.

It expanded rapidly in the 80s/90s, with huge modern estates built around it.

They are represented on this map and I was involved in the building project and many others, also seen on this map. They should not be on this map.

 

 

The big issue is the Yacht Marina, completed in 1993, another project I was involved in, digging the harbour out of dry land and should not be here.

 

Dungeness Nuclear Power Station. :doh:

Immersion killers.

 

I was expecting a WW2 map.

 

 

Do you get my point?

 

 

..

[Cunctator]

Here is a reasonably detailed 1938 period map that, compared to the in game map shown above, demonstrates the additional build up zones.

http://www.bsswebsite.me.uk/A%20Short%20History%20of/enlargement.html?map=42

 

 

Personally, I love the new map and don't need every single building to be correct for the period to have a good WW2 experience in flight sim. At least as long as they look like buildings from the 1930s or 40s its no immersion killer for me. I and most likely the vast majority of DCS customers would not know that the 1940s factory complex below is in reality a nuclear power station that should not be there. When using period maps for in game navigation things like that will eventually be realized, but simply being able to use correct maps is good enough for me. I can understand however, that people who lived in this area can have stronger feelings about such things.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Cunctator

[Holbeach]

Nice map.

 

That actually represents what we should be seeing in this Channel map. Nothing will have changed on the civil side until 1950.

 

Notice the Artillery range from the Newhaven Fort, I mentioned.

 

 

Now is the time to mention anomalies in an EA project and that is what I'm doing and I will be making a list for the Wishlist.

 

 

..

Edited June 7, 2020 by Holbeach

[imacken]

No, imacken. He's here to vent, p*** & moan.

 

How do i tell this?

 

1. No supporting data - no screenies of current map vs. historic map of own extents; you know, an effort to educate the devs in their error and assist them in referencing appropriate sources to correct it.

2. No reference to any other areas that may or may not reflect similar issues

3. Only too ready to assume that since one tiny fraction of the map he is familiar is not 100% spot on that, therefore, the entire map is a slap-dash, rushed, perfunctory effort thrown out the door to keep us quiet.

 

I'm not denying there are problem areas; I am part of a group going through the map finding issues and Eastbourne is certainly one of them.

 

However, I live in Kent and have been on the whole remarkably surprised at the level of accuracy in some parts.

 

For example, let's take the town of Maidstone; prior to 1977 a series of paper mills occupied the south bank of the Medway on the Southern edge of the town in an area known as Tovil. These had been in existence since the late 1800s. The main railway line to feed wood, coal and other assorted goods to these mills was on the North bank of the river, therefore a spur line was required bridging the river to access the mills.

 

In 1977 the mills disappeared along with the siding, and the bridge across the river.

 

So go look at the DCS map and tell me whether it's there or not.

 

I wonder how many people here could tell me the extents of the town of Obinsk in Russia was in 1944 and how that relates to the area today?

 

Given that the developers are not locals, is it surprising that somethings are incorrect or that the wrong data is referenced?

 

I would suspect that the underlying terrain data is satellite based and that in order to reach prototypical layouts they are progressing through towns one at a time, deleting the areas that represent developments made post-war.

 

Perhaps they didn't get to *insert your pet peeve town name here* yet. Did that ever cross your mind?

 

Let me repeat, I personally don't care too much about the historical accuracy, but I can see why others do.

 

If ED had sold this on the basis of a Channel Map over area x, then fine, but it is being touted as a WWII map representing the 19040s. It says that on the store page!

 

Just to repeat from that page:

'Our map of the South East of England and North Eastern France encompasses historical airfields, urban areas, roads and railways, ports and other features that make it the perfect setting for the World War II air war in Europe between 1940 and 1945', and

'40,000 square kilometres covering the English Channel region, set in the Second World War era.'

 

Pretty clear isn't it?

[Holbeach]

No, imacken. He's here to vent, p*** & moan.

 

How do i tell this?

 

1. No supporting data - no screenies of current map vs. historic map of own extents; you know, an effort to educate the devs in their error and assist them in referencing appropriate sources to correct it.

2. No reference to any other areas that may or may not reflect similar issues

3. Only too ready to assume that since one tiny fraction of the map he is familiar is not 100% spot on that, therefore, the entire map is a slap-dash, rushed, perfunctory effort thrown out the door to keep us quiet.

 

I'm not denying there are problem areas; I am part of a group going through the map finding issues and Eastbourne is certainly one of them.

 

However, I live in Kent and have been on the whole remarkably surprised at the level of accuracy in some parts.

 

For example, let's take the town of Maidstone; prior to 1977 a series of paper mills occupied the south bank of the Medway on the Southern edge of the town in an area known as Tovil. These had been in existence since the late 1800s. The main railway line to feed wood, coal and other assorted goods to these mills was on the North bank of the river, therefore a spur line was required bridging the river to access the mills.

 

In 1977 the mills disappeared along with the siding, and the bridge across the river.

 

So go look at the DCS map and tell me whether it's there or not.

 

I wonder how many people here could tell me the extents of the town of Obinsk in Russia was in 1944 and how that relates to the area today?

 

Given that the developers are not locals, is it surprising that somethings are incorrect or that the wrong data is referenced?

 

I would suspect that the underlying terrain data is satellite based and that in order to reach prototypical layouts they are progressing through towns one at a time, deleting the areas that represent developments made post-war.

 

Perhaps they didn't get to *insert your pet peeve town name here* yet. Did that ever cross your mind?

 

 

You expect too much frrom a one flight first impression

 

 

 

This map has the potential to be the best in DCS.

 

 

It needs adjustments in its EA stage.

 

 

I have lived in this area most of my life.

I have spent hundreds of hours fliying over the the area and into the airfields.

 

I have been into every single port, with ships, totalling hundreds of times.

I have digitally mapped the coastlines and seabed before GPS was widely available (Syledis),

Been involved in building projects, throughout the English side, including Chatham Naval Base and many civil projects, Rochester, M25/M2.

Performed seabed mineral extraction on English and Dutch side.

I know the area intimately.

Wind your neck in, I believe we are on the same side.

 

 

..

[twistking]

as someone that does not know the area by heart, it is important for me that the map layout is at least plausible.

 

when watching the preview videos though, i felt that some industrial areas did not look very plausible at all. on the french side there were many industrial buildings scattered lonely around the countryside.

 

maybe these are ment to be agricultural buildings, however the buildings looked more like factories.

anyone else noticed this?

 

maybe this is perfectly realistic, i'm just wondering why you would build a factory in the open field instead of grouping it with industry of similar kind...

 

another thing would be major industrial areas without rail or harbour access. something you'll find more often in the modern world, but not in the 40s, i would assume. these are alls things that one might notive even without knowing the area in real life...

Edited June 7, 2020 by twistking

[dis80786]

Flying the Spit in instant , with same settings as in Caucasus.

 

 

Frame rate in low 20s due to so many houses.

Wait a minuit. Is this WW2? Why so many houses?

 

 

It soon became apparant that this is not 1940's but 1990's at the earliest.

Approaching Eastbourne, I spied a harbour ahead. Sovereign Marina, built in the 80's and surrounded by huge estates, built in the housing boom of the same period.

Estates like this are all over the map.

 

 

 

Newhaven Harbour, is missing it's most noticable feature, the fort, built on top of cliffs, heavily used in WW2 and prominant on D Day, but it has modern industrial estates and houses built in this century, where there shouldn't be. It was a railway town during the war. Tracks were the big feature.

 

Dungeness has an industrial area on the beach (Nuclear power station), where there should be nothing.

 

Three quarters of the buildings on this map shouldn't be there.

 

 

Reservoirs built in the 70's.

 

 

The makers have made unnecessary hard work for themselves, if this is supposed to be WW2.

 

This is a map suitable for people who don't know the area.

 

To be continued.

 

..

 

I agree. I actually live in one of the towns on the map; there would have been a railway which ran through it in the 1940's which isn't there on the map; no sign of Eastbourne Pier although Hastings Pier is looking great; Beachy Head Lighthouse is there but no Belle Tout Lighthouse; Hastings has no net-drying sheds on the seafront; use of generic bridges on Pevensey Levels and Rye Flats which looks terrible; no windmills anywhere (there are heaps IRL) ; I can go on but you get the idea.

 

I might sound a bit gripey, but these are major landmarks by which one navigates around the south-east of England, and to see them missing just jars a bit

 

Obviously I am aware this is early access and there are a great deal more work to be done but all I am saying is that I hope this all gets fleshed out a bit in the future.

 

BTW my FPS is high 30's - low 40's in VR, so it's playable.

[DD_Fenrir]

You expect too much frrom a one flight first impression

 

 

 

This map has the potential to be the best in DCS.

 

 

It needs adjustments in its EA stage.

 

 

I have lived in this area most of my life.

I have spent hundreds of hours fliying over the the area and into the airfields.

 

I have been into every single port, with ships, totalling hundreds of times.

I have digitally mapped the coastlines and seabed before GPS was widely available (Syledis),

Been involved in building projects, throughout the English side, including Chatham Naval Base and many civil projects, Rochester, M25/M2.

Performed seabed mineral extraction on English and Dutch side.

I know the area intimately.

Wind your neck in, I believe we are on the same side.

 

 

..

 

 

Okay Holbeach, I've read back through the posts and realised that I posted yesterday tired and with my back up from other things and consequently I read more invective into your posts than was actually there.

 

You have my apologies for being quick to jump down your throat on this issue, and that indeed we are coming at this from the angle of wishing to make the Channel a more accurate representation of the era that it is aiming to represent.

 

However, I would suggest to all of you who have intimate knowledge of the areas depicted that if you see something amiss, that you take a screenshot of the offending issue and then present it here with some comparison to actual maps or photos, if available, of the object/area under question.

 

Research can be a hugely time-consuming task for developers and there is only so much time they can spend drilling through arcane web-links to try and find exactly the right thing to look for and at some point they will reach a "that will have to do" threshold in the name of expediency. If you can provide the requisite information as to what is not right and the appropriate references as to what it should look like it saves the developer a ton of time and makes the likelihood of a correction that more likely.

 

A good place to start is here:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=6&lat=56.71138&lon=-4.90000&layers=14&b=1&z=1&point=0,0

 

Particularly useful for when referencing the limits of towns and cities.

Edited June 8, 2020 by DD_Fenrir

[DD_Fenrir]

For Eastbourne the earliest I can find are a 1947 series:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/207357426

https://maps.nls.uk/view/196759823

https://maps.nls.uk/view/196759787

[imacken]

For the people here who seem to know the facts, are there any 40s buildings etc. on this map that are no longer in existance?

[dis80786]

For the people here who seem to know the facts, are there any 40s buildings etc. on this map that are no longer in existance?

 

Yes. Hastings Pier burned down in the 00's, and has been completely rebuilt since. The in-game version is exactly how it looked in the 1940's. Almost all other buildings in game are generic.

[imacken]

OK, so, another question, what is in this map that would justify it being described as 'set during the Seond World War era'?

Only curious!

[Holbeach]

I have just taken a flight, with the Spit, up to Rochester and Chatham dockyard, a place I spent a lot of time at and know well and which is now surrounded by houses.

 

 

To my delight, the Dockyard is depicted as it was and I could look down and see myself walking round it and out the gate to the pub, back in the day.

 

 

Moving to Rochester, the quayside with its 2 cranes are inplace, as are the nearby gasholders. Another area that has my stamp on it.

 

 

This is much more like it.

 

 

Let's try a landing at Detling with the Spit.

 

 

It looks good from the air, but why the crosses on the runway.

Never mind, we're going in.

 

 

Oh dear oh dear. That didn't go well and I havn't mapped the brakes yet.

 

The Squadron Leaders car stopped me. Maybe he hasn't noticed.

 

 

The airfield is very impressive and full of correct RAF period buildings and vehicles. This is how I would expect a WW2 map to lool like.

 

TBC.

..

[Alicatt]

Recently I was looking at maps of my own area in Scotland, one of the biggest differences between the war years and now is the amount of railways, I was quite astounded by the amount of lines and sidings and the branches going off into individual factories. The Beeching cuts in 1960s devastated the rail network in the UK, and to keep it in context Dr Beeching was born in Sheerness in Kent.

 

Ok now onto St Leonards and West Marina depot just west of Hastings.

 

I know we cannot have full details on the map, here is a comparison from the railway pictures from the early 1930's, the aerial pic from 1957, just before the Beeching cuts and what is on the channel map. This was just a quick example.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Alicatt
missing R from the first word adding 2 pre/post WW2 aerial pics of the Marina area

[Holbeach]

For Eastbourne the earliest I can find are a 1947 series:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/207357426

https://maps.nls.uk/view/196759823

https://maps.nls.uk/view/196759787

 

 

No problem. Accepted.

 

 

The Scottish library maps are a goldmine.

 

 

1947 is OK. More houses were removed than built, in the 40's.

 

 

 

The second one contains all the info about my biggest upset, The Yacht monstrocity, North of Langney Point, opened in 1993 and dug out of the ground where the hospital is.

 

 

It's GOT TO GO.

 

 

You will also notice, Martello Towers, feature heavily along this coastline.

 

 

 

..

Edited June 8, 2020 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

Notes. Updated Suggestions for wishlist.

 

 

SE England only.

 

 

Remove all modern housing estates and Industrial/Retail parks, built in the 1980's, mainly in the west. E.g. Crowborough, which was a small village in the 40's.

 

Remove Sovereign Marina, built in the 90's (essential).

 

 

Add beach defences

Include all 20 airfields. (Era changer is on the cards, so these will probably be selective).

Add Martello Towers.

Add Piers: Eastbourne, Deal.

Newhaven: Breakwater. Add Fort. Remove Ind Estates/retail parks. Add Cliffs westwards. Add jetties in harbour.

Seaford Head. Add cliffs and cottages. (German nav point).

Add Cathedral Canterbury, Rochester.

Add Leeds Castle. Bodiham Castle.

 

Add Woolwich Arsenal. Ford Motor Works, Purfleet Refinery, (London Targets).

Add windmills.

Add Apple orchards and Hop fields, which dominated the countryside in North Kent. ( before the EU removed them).

Dungeness: Remove Nuclear power station and Lydd on Sea. Add RH&D Railway. Hope & Anchor pub.

Remove large reservoirs (1970's).

Add Belle Tout.

Add. Whitstable Harbour.

Remove eyesore triangle ind est, 2.8 nm west of Headcorn, among many others.

Add Rochester civil airfield.

Improve Cliffe explosive factory.

Add missing CH and CHL radars.

Improve KG V dock. (London City Airport).

 

Add Merchant shipping, Navy shipping, any shipping (rare in DCS)?

Replace Russian Diesel loco and rolling stock, with Steam era trains.

 

 

 

 

TBC.

 

 

..

Edited June 15, 2020 by Holbeach
Adding info.

[Bagpipe]

Notes.

SE England only.

 

 

Remove all modern housing estates.

Remove Sovereign Marina.

 

20 airfields.

Martello Towers.

Piers: Eastbourne.

 

Newhaven: Breakwater. Fort. Remove Ind Estates. Add Cliffs eastwards. Add jetties.

 

Seaford Head. Add cliffs.

Add Cathedrals.

 

Dungeness: Remove Nuclear power station and Lydd on Sea.

Remove reservoirs.

Add Belle Tout.

 

Tilbury Power Station.

Whitstable Harbour.

 

 

TBC.

 

 

..

 

You know, at first i read through the thread and thought "here we flippin go, someone's miffed AGAIN..." but on reading through i can't agree more with your criticisms.

Their are flaws which i would say are passable and some like the ones above which are just fglaringly inaccurate.

 

I really hope that ED see these reports and action them sooner rather than later because the map is beautiful it would be a shame for it to lose stars based on factual accuracy i guess. :thumbup:

[rss0900]

The problem I had/have with Normandy map is it's boring, it all looks the same to me. I'm very pleased with the channel map it's the best so far. There's a couple things I hope for.

 

Don't remove houses and objects just to improve performance, my performance is good if you are going to remove stuff please make it opt in/out. Having all these house/buildings and variation while flying is very nice.

 

While I agree some of the modern assets detract from the WW2 feeling , here again please don't remove them and leave the spot empty - replace with a ww2 asset. I know everyone has different opinions on have an accurate map vs having a fun to fly map so maybe have two versions one for people like me who love the new variety and one for who want true WW2 accuracy.

Edited June 9, 2020 by rss0900

[Holbeach]

The question of the housing is a difficult one.

 

 

This whole SE England area had little heavy industry in the 40's. It was predominantly horse and cart agriculture, with seaside towns catering for London holidaymakers in boarding houses. The huge housing expansion you see in the map, on the South coast, started from the 50's, so for WW2 accuracy, they simply didn't exist and neither did industrial estates.

Removing housing would be for accuracy, rather than performance and a WW2 asset, in most cases would be grass.

 

 

On the other hand, very few people who buy this map, will actually know that, or maybe even care and a lot of effort has gone into producing it.

Difficult one and I doubt that it would be popular, or actually be done.

 

 

The North of the area has a good feel to it. The airfields are excellent and I am enjoying the overall experience.

 

 

..

[dis80786]

Notes.

SE England only.

 

 

Remove all modern housing estates.

Remove Sovereign Marina.

 

20 airfields.

Martello Towers.

Piers: Eastbourne.

 

Newhaven: Breakwater. Fort. Remove Ind Estates. Add Cliffs eastwards. Add jetties.

 

Seaford Head. Add cliffs.

Add Cathedrals.

 

Dungeness: Remove Nuclear power station and Lydd on Sea.

Remove reservoirs.

Add Belle Tout.

 

Tilbury Power Station.

Whitstable Harbour.

 

 

TBC.

 

 

..

 

To that, may I add:

 

Historical railways

Pevensey/Bodiam/Rochester/Camber etc castles

Windmills Sussexmillsgroup.org and oast houses (see why I say so, below)

Seafront hotels in Eastbourne

Coastguard cottages at Birling Gap and Cuckmere Haven

Hastings Bathing Pool, White-Rock gardens, Harbour Arm and net-drying huts at Rock-an-Ore

General sea-front fortifications: where are all the pillboxes, barbed wire, hedgehogs on the beaches etc of a country faced with invasion three years prior to this map?

 

Sussex was then, and still is largely, an agricultural landscape, and then inclusion of modern industrial/housing estates and random factories in the middle of nowhere, rather than oast houses and windmills, is immersion-destroying. Yes, perhaps a large majority of people flying over this map have no idea what the south of England actually looks like, and to some of them it doesn’t matter at all. But to a significant group of people, to see such omissions is jarring.

 

View this in the context of the Normandy map. That was a huge missed opportunity and the southeast of England existed only as a green splodge with airfields dotted around, effectively denying the community a third of the map they can legitimately have expected to receive before it launched. I also remember flying a Spitfire Mk. 1 over ‘London’ in IL2 CoD and noting the omission even of St Paul’s Cathedral, that symbol of the Blitz, and being astounded. The Channel map could have been what we were waiting for, but as of now it falls short.

 

Finally, we make damn sure that every rivet is present and correct on the virtual aircraft we fly, right down to an unpainted screw on a botched repair on the instrument panel of the new P-47D. I am not suggesting every single building should be accurately modelled and precisely placed, but between Holbeach’s suggestions and my own, if implemented, would make the DCS Channel Map an industry-leading product and mean that I never leave my PC again! That and these landmarks are vital for easy visual navigation.

 

Would love to hear the views of those who know a northern France well too.

[Holbeach]

At the moment we have a Jack of all trades map, which will be usable by jets and WW2 planes alike.

But it's not a WW2 map and it needs stuff to make it feel that way.

I dont want to see any concessions to the, I want it all brigade, with fast jet runways added. (There's always Manston).

 

 

 

We're in EA so there is time to give it some WW flavour.

 

 

Newhaven for example, was built and owned by the railway and the whole town was devoted to it .

It supplied WW1 and WW2 front lines and it needs updating to reflect this.

At the moment it has retail parks, (Tesco, B & Q etc) and Denton, built after the War.

 

 

 

With regards to France, I am very familiar with all of the ports and the best one is Dunkirk, which looks good.

I was glad to see it doesn't include the post war extension to Mardyck, a stretch of water I've travelled many times.

 

 

I have yet to travel inland, so a French impression would be welcome.

 

 

Jump back in the Spit and let's have a look at it.

 

 

..

[Holbeach]

WW2 Airfields.

 

 

https://www.rotary-ribi.org/clubs/page.php?PgID=632446&ClubID=460

 

 

..

[Alicatt]

WW2 Airfields.

 

 

https://www.rotary-ribi.org/clubs/page.php?PgID=632446&ClubID=460

 

 

..

 

They missed the one at Fearn between Tain and Balintore, but that is outside the area of the Channel map

[dis80786]

Should we transfer all this to the Wishlist, do your think?

[Holbeach]

Should we transfer all this to the Wishlist, do your think?

That is my intention, so yes, go ahead.

 

 

..

Edited June 10, 2020 by Holbeach