Cheaters in LOMAC ???

[Peyoteros]

Hi everyone,

 

Wanted to ask you all, with all experiences of playing on line, which are far greater than mine (only one month) Is the cheating common on LOMAC servers? I'm not talking about using mod loads, I'm talking about people with modified planes on public servers, lua files etc. I'm not programmer of any kind, so I want to ask the programmers from ED/DCS, is modifications possible? For instance, is it possible (theoretically) to modify Mig-29s or any other flyable plane with rear or front facing IR jammer as the one on Su25T?

Cos, well, I don't know, but there are some pilots on line..., anything you launch on them is like water from the goose, no effect whatsoever, whatever he sends towards me is surely mine, no matter what you do, high G turns while shooting all countermeasures out, still feels like I'm the missile magnet... But OK, the ability to avoid missiles could be mine inexperience. But come on, I've launched 2x27ET, 2xR77, and 2xR73, from 5- 6 km, and none of them hit the plane, 3 - 4 seconds latter, he have lock on me and launching the missile. At the moment of my launch he was facing away, I was shooting in to his tail pipes from 6 km, was well in range, so he had to do evasive and the find me, lock, and fire back, and all that in 3-4 seconds...

And then there was plenty of encounters when none of the missiles hit, like he is invincible... and that what makes me to be suspicious cos I can shoot anyone else down, but that guy... So, can anyone please, who understands what I'm talking about, come forward and spare some of valuable time and put some light on it, cos I have some hours played on line games, first person shooters mostly, encountered army of cheaters, basically cos of that stopped playing Americas Army, BF2, BF2SF, BF2AF, BF2142... all paid for...except Americas Army - freebee... (what a waist of money) and those games have a Punkbuster protection as a must, EvenBalance also a must... as far as I know there is nothing running on the servers to find cheaters in LOMAC. So, is the cheating possible?

 

All Comments and shared experiences are welcome

 

Thank You!

[rattler]

I would say yes there are cheaters but the sqd,s have strict rules for their pilots. I would say apply to fly with a sqd. and you will have fun. They have training packages etc.. Drop in on one, they are most friendly and helpful, some will let you fly with them as they check out how well you fly and interact with the team. I had the same problem as you, had I guy go out 5k at his request he told me to shoot everything I got at him, missed 2 sec later I get gunned down, shots ripped right through canopy. I also found if I managed to get the drop on someone I got nailed. Found out when I took off a buddy was right behind me and if one of his guy's got lined up down you went could not figure that one out till one day I did a look back on runway and there he was. Try the Sqd's and you will enjoy lockon. cheers.

[GGTharos]

You realize all this may just be a matter of latency - there is a lot of accusations of cheating which are untrue. Net code isn't perfect and, while some people cheat, most probably don't. There were much bigger problems like this when LO first started out, and they're better now. You won't see warping usually, but you might see getting yourself hit while the guy's aspect is all wrong (nose pointing at you for example instead of leading in a gunfight), missiles appearing to hit but not causing damage, etc.

[Peyoteros]

You realize all this may just be a matter of latency - there is a lot of accusations of cheating which are untrue. Net code isn't perfect and, while some people cheat, most probably don't. There were much bigger problems like this when LO first started out, and they're better now. You won't see warping usually, but you might see getting yourself hit while the guy's aspect is all wrong (nose pointing at you for example instead of leading in a gunfight), missiles appearing to hit but not causing damage, etc.

 

I guess i understand what you are saying, thou it happened multiple times, so I've noticed that... And as I said there is no problems with anyone else on the server. Look man lets put it this way, I played on that server 3 times longer than anyone else last month... And every time I encounter that guy my chances of killing him are about 20/1 unless he is invincible he uses some kind of cheat, and I'm not the only one, who noticed that...so, can you modify plane with IR jammers or use some kind modifications which gives you an advantage without being caught?

Simple question, can I have simple answer please :D

[GGTharos]

Well, some people are special. And LOMAC is peculiar as well - it can cause warping at such moments that you might think it's a cheater, and consistently, too.

It can be anything:

The server

his computer

your computer

some router inbetween

 

The list goes on, and it causes some pretty funky effects, as I've mentioned ... I personally cut up a Su-25 of a guy whom I KNOW does not cheat, and he was flying around with half a wing (it looked like half to me, on hisscreen it was in one piece) ... he didn't go down until I had cleaned out all of my ammo - all of it.

 

And no, you can't have a simple answer since it doesn't exist. If I say yes, you'll run up and down screaming cheater like every other n00b on HL. If I say no, well - he really -might- be cheating ... but you couldn't possibly be able to tell. Period.

 

Tell him to go to another server and try there or something ;) Or ask him for a track, that's the simplest thing.

 

And ... perhaps to make it clear: If he's cheating in a manner that cannot be detected, you can't catch him. Period. The server owners might ask him not to play there since his natwork latency or whatever makes it bad for everyone else. That's the most you can do.

[xplight]

Last week i notice one man, i think he is using something...

I was on his tail, i fire a lot of missles (AIM120, AIM7) from 3-4 miles... But my missles guided not at him, they guied left or right side from him. I well know about low alt bug, but it wasnt it, we were arounf 500-1000 feet alt.. And only last one AIM7 hit him, derectly, he was with a gun-shot distance.

My wingman, and some other players says that they have problem to kill that man to...

[Kuky]

Yup there are definitely instances pretty consistand inconsistencies like this with same few individuals which are close to imposible to hit. There are ways to evade every type of misile if you do just the right thing at the right moment... but that is not what bothers me (as this is how the game is modeled) what bothers and wonders me is how a very minor number of people have something, that I would describe, as AI perfect SA in every moment at every aspect? I am very puzzled just how do some people manage to obtain perfect SA in multi fighter engagement where enemy is at different altitudes, headings and aspect to him... there are few different types of missiles fired at him frmo different angles (had seen few such instances to I talk from personal experience) and yet they evade evey missile fired at them with, what looks like to me, very ease.

 

I've seen people fly without warping atlonger ranges as you have them locked on radar, and just as you fire a missile at them they suddenly warp or start warping for longer time... and naturally, the missile does not track or hit.

 

I have one more most strange instance where I gun the guy, I see his right engine smoke quite a bit so I am asuming he would have to have that engine damaged and no longer functional, and somehow just as AI does, shortly after his engine is no longer smoking, he does a very, very slow turn... I try to follow and I completely stall and he does not, he seems to be slower than me nose pointing upwards and he just stays stable and I overshoot and as I cannot recover from flat spin stall, he guns me and I lose engine and I just had to bail.

 

From this instance I wonder few things:

 

1. If his engine is on fire and smoking does that mean his engine is out?

2. If his engine is out can human flown plane have engine fire extinguished like AI can?

3. If his engine is out there would be no way for him to manouvre as such as his plane would have too much yaw not to mention he would be 1/2 the engine power?

 

If someone can explain to me this with some propper facts that would be good...

[GGTharos]

He was probably just dumping a lot of chaff - also LOMAC missiles break lock easily when very sharp (yet small) changes in direction are made when the missile is close. This combination works very well for the defender when fired on tail-on.

 

Last week i notice one man, i think he is using something...

I was on his tail, i fire a lot of missles (AIM120, AIM7) from 3-4 miles... But my missles guided not at him, they guied left or right side from him. I well know about low alt bug, but it wasnt it, we were arounf 500-1000 feet alt.. And only last one AIM7 hit him, derectly, he was with a gun-shot distance.

My wingman, and some other players says that they have problem to kill that man to...

[Yeniceri]

I myself have seen many impossible evasions..(lag excluded)

I guess some guys knows things that most of us dont know....

[GGTharos]

Those would be what we call naturals, I guess? They do happen.

 

There are ways to evade every type of misile if you do just the right thing at the right moment... but that is not what bothers me (as this is how the game is modeled) what bothers and wonders me is how a very minor number of people have something, that I would describe, as AI perfect SA in every moment at every aspect? I am very puzzled just how do some people manage to obtain perfect SA in multi fighter engagement where enemy is at different altitudes, headings and aspect to him...

 

Yep, and that's another known LOMAC quirk - at least known to those of us who looked into it a long time ago. When a missile is fired at you there's some extra CPU cycles and extra bandwidth allocated to it. Sometimes, and especially combined with some other things, it's just enough to make you warp. Of course, the first thing peopel shout when this happens is 'cheater! Printscreener!' :) And you can't really tell.

I suppose you could watch their tracks and see if they were legitimately maneuvering at that time - and of course tracks contain keypresses so if you know how to extract that info ...

 

I've seen people fly without warping atlonger ranges as you have them locked on radar, and just as you fire a missile at them they suddenly warp or start warping for longer time... and naturally, the missile does not track or hit.

 

 

So he probably lost hydraulics and a bunch of other things, and what you should have really done is go UP! It might be a quirk in lomac's AoA modeling, it might be that the damage isn't synchronized on both machines for some reason. Either works and can happen.

 

 

If someone can explain to me this with some propper facts that would be good...

[Kuky]

GG , that still doesn't explain how his engine stoped smoking? From what I believe only AI can do that (you smoke his engine and yet he continues flying as if nothing happened and shortly after smoke/fire is out)?

[GGTharos]

And as far as your PC is concerned, that network client -is- an AI as well (except the input is coming from elsewhere). You might have not caused the damage you thought - like I said, the damage model might not be synchronized between the two machines.

As I mentioned before, I've cut up a Su-25 (just the one instance I remember) once with the gun, yet the guy kept flying without any problems. It simply happens, and there's no clear and clean explanation of exactly what the mechanics of it are without diving into some code/debugging in this case I think.

I don't know if this helps you or not - but that's how things work in this game.

[3Sqn_Fudd]

To the original poster...

 

It's not such an easy question... the only easy answer in all of your questions is yes, some people do cheat, but the vast majority do not.

 

If you want to know whats going on in your engagements, grab the LOTU utility and watch your tracks of Multi-player sessions. It seems tedious but once you get the hang of it you can watch a track pretty quickly, and with all the labels on etc...

 

What i think you may be experience is the natural "what the hell happened there" moments that newer people experience.

[S77th-GOYA]

And as far as your PC is concerned, that network client -is- an AI as well (except the input is coming from elsewhere).

 

Untrue.

 

There is a distinction between AI and client aircraft. The easiest way to see it is to be killed by each and check the mp_log file afterward. The AI kill won't be there. BUT, the damage models should be distinct, regardless. Well actually, they shouldn't be, but they are.

[xplight]

... and of course tracks contain keypresses so if you know how to extract that info ...

 

:) so how to extract keypress info?

Such thing can be great "cheat-using-proof" tool.

[RvEYoda]

the trick is that there is ...chaffchaffchaff, maddog maddog maddog

will usually save you.

[Boberro]

Hmmmm reading yours post I have only one request - don't point somebody is cheater without any clear proofs. In the past I was also suspected of cheating - example enemy couldn't aim me, but friend from the right yes, I also got warping before missile wanted to hit me, or I got much kills in one run. It is very unpleasantly to be suspect for the suspected person, and after for more for criminative person like in my case. Think over before jugde somebody. :)

 

And what about cheating - all is possible. There is no any game which human couldn't brake. But most common that there are lags or unexpected behaviour. Like it was said Lock on net code isn't good. Sometimes I fly on 169 or 104 on Su-25T and killed F-15 or Mig-29 on AviaSibir from Vikhrs, despite F-15 fired one or two AIM-120 oO, I put many chaffs and killed F-15. Killed person COULD (I don't say thought) think that I am cheater cause how he in this brick could evase 2 Amraams.... To resolve problems like strange behaviour on net it is needed ED help to improve code, fix bugs ect - without this IMO still will be uncertainty about if it is cheat or not and will be unpleasantly situations.

[X-man]

A bit OT: I was onced accused for ECM-blink for ahving my ECM on. The guy (in a MiG) thought I was blinking coz on russian planes, the ECM strobes is flickering/blinking by default. So this guy starts screaming in the chat, stop blinking! etc.

 

Im not saying that Peyoteros are, but there are alot of people out there, who's very tiggerhappy in calling people cheaters...

[Boberro]

About blinking - when I press E so on my enemy HUD\MFD shows IMMADIETLY that iam on ECM or after example 2 seconds? Iam asking beacouse exaple when pressing E key for a every one second and it activates after two so I don't blink cause it even didn't turn off\on. So Is it shows immadietly when Iam pressing or after example one second when pressed E?

[Groove]

Guys, no namecalling or we will close this thread.

[Peyoteros]

Take it easy people, please no names in public, please send them by PM :)

Ohh Groove, You are everywhere :P Attention Big Brother is watching!

[muamshai]

I usually host Su25T vs A10 in heavy SAM enviornment :)

[Pilotasso]

Yup there are definitely instances pretty consistand inconsistencies like this with same few individuals which are close to imposible to hit. There are ways to evade every type of misile if you do just the right thing at the right moment... but that is not what bothers me (as this is how the game is modeled) what bothers and wonders me is how a very minor number of people have something, that I would describe, as AI perfect SA in every moment at every aspect? I am very puzzled just how do some people manage to obtain perfect SA in multi fighter engagement where enemy is at different altitudes, headings and aspect to him... there are few different types of missiles fired at him frmo different angles (had seen few such instances to I talk from personal experience) and yet they evade evey missile fired at them with, what looks like to me, very ease.

 

 

 

 

Those would be what we call naturals, I guess? They do happen.

 

 

 

Yep, and that's another known LOMAC quirk - at least known to those of us who looked into it a long time ago. When a missile is fired at you there's some extra CPU cycles and extra bandwidth allocated to it. .

 

Kuky speaks of 2 different things. SA and warping when missiles are guiding, the 2 are easely distinguishable. Perfect SA is not affected by warping and I have observed this online where people would somehow find out they are being shot by heat seekers even when inside blind spots.

 

I also observed other mysterious capabilities like shooting backwards when VS an oponent who I had his 6. It hapened to me half a dozen times (that I noticed for sure) in these past 5 years playing online.

 

Then there was this guy who posted a thread wich to me seemed to explain why some people have superhuman abilities to get out of impossible deadly situations. LOMAC can be HEX edited, DLL parameters edited on the fly (literaly).

 

Its a sad fact but there are (or were) very few people playing online with owl necks, rear firing missiles (180 degrees off boresight shots), X-ray sights, and rearranged pylon loadouts (and still get away unnoticed).

 

I got a hint that people are cheating when for some unexplicable reason the track swiches human piloted planes over to AI to completely mismatch what realy hapened.

[Peyoteros]

Good, I got one of the answers to my questions, there are cheaters on the on-line servers. OK, now how we bring them to light? I mean how to prove that he is cheating? Cos all the proves are on his PC, and his PC is at his house? Any suggestions how to prove? I have few ideas on how to punish them... :P but first things first, I have requested trackview files from the server Admin, I wanna check how "magic" looks from above. If I see something strange, I'll pass it to the admin, and some highly experienced on line pilots to take a look... So that would be my next move...

[A.S]

 

I got a hint that people are cheating when for some unexplicable reason the track swiches human piloted planes over to AI to completely mismatch what realy hapened.

 

interesting...