Someone Please Invent a BETTER Headtracker

[Cpt Cuckoo]

I know this doesn't help you, but I have been using a Trackhat (clip) for about 3 years now and it's every bit as good as TrackIR for 1/5 the price. And before the TrackIR 'fanboyz' jump on me, I had a TrackIR before the Trackhat, but it's so flimsy it broke when I swatted a mosquito. Of course they wouldn't replace it either. Trackhat has been rock solid ever since.

 

From all the reviews I have read I would not choose to go with the Evil Empire's TrackIR either....and go with TrackHat. I know one thing I don't want to be restricted to wearing large headphones when I don't need them and prefer the idea of wearing a ballcap instead.

[SharpeXB]

From all the reviews I have read I would not choose to go with the Evil Empire's TrackIR either....

Oh please... what’s “evil” about a company selling a product? :doh:

Is Trackhat evil for selling a hat with LEDs on it for $60?

 

and prefer the idea of wearing a ballcap instead.

Just be aware that this Trackhat cap comes with a heavy USB cable and power box on it. By comparison the TrackClip is weightless and fits on a visor headband.

Edited October 9, 2020 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

As apposed to all the other garbage out there??? Yeah right!

Yeah this is your alternative :megalol:

[Frederf]

Oh please... what’s “evil” about a company selling a product? :doh:

You really don't know about TrackIR's horrible business practices? http://naturalpointofview.blogspot.com/p/trackir-anticompetition.html :doh:

 

The reason TrackIR doesn't have a better alternative is because NaturalPoint prevents it.

[SharpeXB]

You really don't know about TrackIR's horrible business practices?

(snip)

The reason TrackIR doesn't have a better alternative is because NaturalPoint prevents it.

TL;DR

You realize posting accusations like that is potentially defamatory, right? Publicly accusing anyone of doing something illegal is defamation. Including re-posting it.

 

No doubt some ranting know-nothing conspiracy theory gamer with a $3,000 rig complaining about a $150 head tracker. Probably NaturalPoint needs to protect their intellectual property and business from hacker gamers who want to rip off the tech. In the end, no game I know of blocks the freeware competitors. If you want to talk about dishonest competition how is free software (probably hacked) dumped into the market fair? Making up lost revenue to freeware is probably a factor in the cost of doing business for NaturalPoint although they have more products than just TrackIR, it’s probably a reason the device costs what it does. So those of us who pay for a legitimate product are likely subsidizing the freeloaders.

And this freeware competition like Opentrack is absolutely the reason you’ll never see a “better” head tracker get into the market.

 

The majority of players no doubt want a good commercial head tracking product, not rubber bands and coat hangers tied to their head. Without TrackIR that’s what you would get.

Edited October 9, 2020 by SharpeXB

[Cpt Cuckoo]

TL;DR

 

 

No doubt some ranting know-nothing conspiracy theory

 

Did you just use "conspiracy theory"? ....You just lost all credibility. Go stand in the corner.

[Cpt Cuckoo]

You really don't know about TrackIR's horrible business practices? http://naturalpointofview.blogspot.com/p/trackir-anticompetition.html :doh:

 

The reason TrackIR doesn't have a better alternative is because NaturalPoint prevents it.

 

I think we have established why TrackIR is so ridiculously overpriced. They want us to pay for their lawyers.

[SharpeXB]

I think we have established why TrackIR is so ridiculously overpriced. They want us to pay for their lawyers.

Yeah, real companies have those. Some idiot blogger probably gets to meet them...

Unlike freeware hackers, real companies also have employees to pay.

 

So a $150 for head tracking software and camera is overpriced but a $60 ball cap with LEDs on it isn’t?

Edited October 10, 2020 by SharpeXB

[Gruman]

I owned TrackIR 4 and switched to TrackIR5 when it was released so many years ago.

Back then, it was a great product witout any competition (Naturalpoint made sure of it... Anyway :music_whistling:). Still use it when I play on a monitor and works most of the time.

TrackIR5 works. There are DIY kits and Webcam/Phone Applications, but they will always be a compromise compared to TIR5.

 

But to regard as TIR5 as a device, which require no innovation or improvement is a bit of a stretch. I really like to have a "next-gen" product by NaturalPoint or a competitor.

 

Some things I like to see:

- Tracking coverage (right, left, up down) is way to small. Maybe support for multiple tracker? Maybe an Inside-Out Approach with couple beacons to align once? Plus some 6-Axis inertia tracker for some interpolation?

I shouldnt be needing to trim/adjust some axes just because the tracker cannot see the LED when looking down into the cockpit. All axis should work linear for the full range of motion.

 

- New Software version, improved profile handling, export of tracking-axis to a virtual joystick for not supported games or other projects.

 

- Maybe improved thermals for the TrackIR device? Runs pretty hot and read of crashes under high temperatures

[barriedrew]

Have a look at Tobii Eye / Head tracker. Quite expensive. I have just purchased V5 and it works great. I would not go back to the hat / headphone variants as I have had both. DCS supports the device natively. It can also work in FS2020 with headtracking only, using Facetrack NoIR with a couple of plugins from their website. Works very well and nice to fly without a hat. V4C works as well and those can be bought of ebay for reasonable sums.

[Mr_Burns]

I was thinking something better would come out, Track IR is fine, I use it just fine but dont phones have gimbals and accelerometers in them? So why you use them in Google Cardboard, they act like real VR but without the cameras?

 

 

I could imagine a small box or something clipped to a hat that did it, but would probably have to be wired to send power and signal?

 

 

Amyway, I am not able to invent anything for you!

[Gruman]

EDTracker would be the thing you are talking about. Small accelerometer and gyrosope electronics. Downside is 3DOF only.

 

Hmm, Tobii Tracker... Didnt hear anything about the newer versions... Is it any good for the price?

What about tracking in low light situations?

[Cpt Cuckoo]

Have a look at Tobii Eye / Head tracker. Quite expensive. I have just purchased V5 and it works great. I would not go back to the hat / headphone variants as I have had both. DCS supports the device natively. It can also work in FS2020 with headtracking only, using Facetrack NoIR with a couple of plugins from their website. Works very well and nice to fly without a hat. V4C works as well and those can be bought of ebay for reasonable sums.

 

From the reviews I read on Tobii and DCS some people are having problems. Suck as zooming in and out. Maybe its only 3DF ? I saw another video and it seemed that looking back behind you was slow. That's something that you just can't have in DCS. You have to be able to sweep back and see quickly! At this point in development and at the cost of around $300 or more all told and depending on where one is, I'd say it would be a gamble to purchase.

[Ranma13]

You really don't know about TrackIR's horrible business practices? http://naturalpointofview.blogspot.com/p/trackir-anticompetition.html :doh:

 

The reason TrackIR doesn't have a better alternative is because NaturalPoint prevents it.

 

No, that's incorrect. That site has been used time and again as "proof" against NaturalPoint, but just because a website says something, that doesn't make it true. I don't want to get into it because nearly every point is incorrect, uses really bad logic, is unverifiable (there's tons of broken links), or simply puts out a vague and somewhat unrelated statement and says "draw your own conclusion, as long as that conclusion is the same as mine". I'd have to create my own website just to debunk it because of how much misinformation there is.

 

In reality, NaturalPoint asked FreeTrack to remove TrackIR support, then subsequently password-protected their SDK because people were using FreeTrack with webcams to get TrackIR support, without buying a TrackIR camera. Anyone is free to create their own head tracking camera and SDK and work with game developers to integrate it into their game, they just can't do it with the TrackIR SDK and a non-TrackIR camera. This is no different than how if you want to use a Tesla Supercharger station, you need a Tesla car, or if you want to access the App Store, you need an iPhone. This isn't anti-competitive; Tesla's not saying "don't make electric cars" and Apple's not saying "don't make smartphones", just like how NaturalPoint isn't saying "don't make head tracking devices". What they're saying is "if you want to use this thing we made, you can only use it with the other thing we made".

 

Case in point, the Tobii Eye Tracker is another head tracking device that has its own SDK and is supported in games that have TrackIR support as well, and NaturalPoint has no issues with that because it doesn't use anything that they created.

[Frederf]

NP made developers sign contracts that require their games to not support tracking from non-NP products in order to have TIR support.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Frederf

[SharpeXB]

NP made developers sign contracts that require their games to not support tracking from non-NP products in order to have TIR support.

Because those products probably hacked the NP software.

[Frederf]

Whatever. You can lead a horse to information but

[Ranma13]

NP made developers sign contracts that require their games to not support tracking from non-NP products in order to have TIR support.

 

That page is the only one on the internet that makes that claim, but like all of its other bullet points, the logic it uses under the Exclusive Dealing heading is extremely bad:

 

The TrackIR SDK license agreement according to one game developer 'contained verbage related to emulation in any form of their product' which conflicted with their desire to also support face tracking. They declined to accept the agreement noting that 'NaturalPoint is very serious about their castle on the mountain.'

 

What the agreement says is "don't emulate our hardware", or in other words, "don't write code that makes a standard webcam appear as a TrackIR camera to the SDK". This is no different than the license agreement that other companies use, for example Sony's Playstation Developer agreement that says "don't create a Playstation emulator".

 

'I don't entirely like the NDA NaturalPoint want us to sign before being able to get our hands on the SDK though. TrackIR support may come from a third party as a plugin, removing potential restrictions from everyone else (if it's possible).'

 

It's not clear what "potential restrictions" and who "everyone else" is, and because the source link is dead, it's impossible to verify.

 

Made Eagle Dynamics remove their own headtracker plugin interface from DCS: Black Shark shortly after it was made available in 2008, 'Implementation of the "HeadTracker" interface is canceled at the request of NaturalPoint.' A 2007 version of the TrackIR Enhanced™ SDK Usage Agreement prohibits 'creating software with similar functionality'. Another contributing factor may have been that Eagle Dynamics had a distribution deal with NaturalPoint in the past, some of their games were available for exclusive pre-order in the US on the TrackIR website. A petition in 2011 led to a second attempt at releasing the interface for DCS: A-10C and was successful.

 

The author basically provided his own reason why this doesn't support his claim. ED had a distribution deal with NaturalPoint, which means that developing a head tracker plugin for non-TrackIR cameras was against the deal, similar to how if you sign an exclusive deal with Sony to release a game only on the PlayStation, you can't also release it on the Xbox. These kinds of deals means that one company is spending their time and resources to help sell a product, and when people buy that product, they also buy the company's product. In other words, NaturalPoint signed an exclusive deal with ED so that when people buy the game, they also buy a TrackIR camera. If ED released a head tracker plugin that supported non-TrackIR cameras while still under this exclusive deal, then NaturalPoint would be spending their time and resources, but not benefiting from the deal.

 

Like all of the other links, the link to the SDK agreement is dead, and "creating software with similar functionality" is vague without any context. If I had to guess, I think "software" in this case means the official TrackIR software, so it's saying "don't create a clone of our official TrackIR software". However, this is impossible to verify.

 

The 2011 petition is also a dead link, but it's for one of those useless online petitions where someone writes something out, then people click a button to sign it. In other words, it's just a poll. ED eventually released their head tracker plugin, likely not because of the petition, but because their exclusivity deal with NaturalPoint expired.

 

777 Studios (known for Rise of Flight) is founded by a former NaturalPoint employee and refuses to support head trackers other than TrackIR on the basis that they are illegal. 'Any product that access the game for head tracking other than TrackIR is infringing upon NaturalPoint's patents' 'We will never support such a device.'

 

The author links to his own page that gives more detail, but if you read through it, it very clearly states that the issue is that 3rd party devices are using TrackIR's SDK. He cherry-picked and joined together two statements from two separate quotes. The full quotes are "Any product that access the game for head tracking other than TrackIR is infringing upon NaturalPoint's patents as they use the hooks and code specifically designed for TrackIR that allow for control of the camera view.", and "This product [VRInsight HAT-Track] is a Korean rip off of TrackIR and it infringes on NaturalPoint's U.S. patents. We will never support such a device. Any product that uses the same TrackIR technology, both it's hardware and software patents without a license from NaturalPoint will not be purposely supported by us."

 

The issue is not that other head tracking devices exist, it's that they're using the TrackIR SDK.

 

Racing sim developer PiBoSo (Kart Racing Pro, GP Bikes, World Racing Series) supports FreeTrack and wants to support TrackIR but refuses to sign NaturalPoint's license agreement required to access the SDK. TrackIR is of course free to achieve support through the FreeTrack interface.

 

This doesn't explain why PiBoSo refused to sign the agreement, and the original link is dead.

 

Seven-g developer is reluctant to support FreeTrack after signing the TrackIR NDA, 'some problem that I have is I already signed NDA with TrackIR company. so I don't know ....'

 

Another dead link with a vague statement. Also note that the problem here is specifically with FreeTrack, because at one point they allowed standard webcams to be used with the TrackIR SDK. NaturalPoint obviously doesn't want to give out access to their SDK if it's just going to be used with standard webcams.

 

NaturalPoint admitted they are in 'kind of a unique position where we've been around for a while, and know a lot of developers, publishers, and press'.

 

This is just a statement of fact that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

 

Claim they prefer not to purchase support in games and rather developers add support at their own expense. Developers have been known to get free TrackIR cameras for testing and prizes for promotional competitions.

 

"Prefer" is not the same thing as "never", and giving out TrackIR cameras for testing and prizes is not the same thing as "purchasing support in games".

 

Falsely claim on their website that all games on the 'TrackIR Enhanced' list have 'special support features built in just for TrackIR' despite memory hacks being used for thirteen of them (via TIRViews.dll) and a third party interface for one of them (FSX SimConnect).

 

The author says that the special support features claim isn't true because...hacks exist to access those special features? :confused:

Edited October 15, 2020 by Ranma13

[SharpeXB]

Whatever. You can lead a horse to information but

Hey if anyone wants to let themselves be dissuaded from using the best head tracking solution on the market due to this hacker culture nonsense “information”, it’s their loss. And all of us who pay for a legitimate product are subsidizing the freeloaders using the “free” software which was probably hacked. All that this freeware accomplishes is to raise the price of the commercial product and inhibit anyone else from entering the market.

[Cpt Cuckoo]

Hey if anyone wants to let themselves be dissuaded from using the best head tracking solution on the market due to this hacker culture nonsense “information”, it’s their loss. And all of us who pay for a legitimate product are subsidizing the freeloaders using the “free” software which was probably hacked. All that this freeware accomplishes is to raise the price of the commercial product and inhibit anyone else from entering the market.

 

It's not the best if it doesn't fit on my screen without falling off. It's not made for a laptop.

[SharpeXB]

It's not the best if it doesn't fit on my screen without falling off. It's not made for a laptop.

Actually I do think it will fit on a very thin screen provided it’s not moving. If you set the laptop on a table it would work. Certainly better than a PS3 camera.

[WelshZeCorgi]

I honestly kind of hate TrackIR. Whenever my head was in a position where 2 reflectors on the clip or 2 of the redLEDs on the proclip overlap from the sensor's POV, it would wig out and get stuck under the front panel or something. A nightmare in dogfights because it would get constantly get stuck due to this. VR does not have this problem, thankfully.

 

I wondering if there is a headtracker for vive or index lighthouses?

[MustangSally]

I honestly kind of hate TrackIR. Whenever my head was in a position where 2 reflectors on the clip or 2 of the redLEDs on the proclip overlap from the sensor's POV, it would wig out and get stuck under the front panel or something. A nightmare in dogfights because it would get constantly get stuck due to this. VR does not have this problem, thankfully.

 

I wondering if there is a headtracker for vive or index lighthouses?

 

 

If TrackIr is correctly setup, that should never happen.

[WelshZeCorgi]

If TrackIr is correctly setup, that should never happen.

 

On a 50" TV, the base was constantly looking down at an angle, and the trackclip and trackclip pro cannot be angled upwards to face the camera better.

[MustangSally]

On a 50" TV, the base was constantly looking down at an angle, and the trackclip and trackclip pro cannot be angled upwards to face the camera better.

 

 

I sit in this with a 43" 4k screen and it works perfectly....

Edited October 16, 2020 by MustangSally