Using the SPO-15LM system to evade incoming missiles?

[Alexrey]

I've been trying to ween myself off the use of labels but it's been really difficult. I don't have trouble finding the target, but when it comes to evading incoming missiles I'm hopeless. I never know where the missile is or how close it is to me and it always takes me by surprise and turns me into a fireball. I read somewhere about being able to know where and how far the missile is from you by using the Su-27 SPO-15LM threat warning system, but haven't figured it out yet.

 

Is it possible or was I just gullible? Would really appreciate some help! Thanks guys.

[159th_Viper]

Start Here :)

 

R-27ER VS AIM-120: Winning the SARH vs ARH Du

R-27ER vs AIM-120: Winning the SARH vs ARH Duel

 

Courtesy of Flankertraining

 

 

"A beginner's guide to winning an SARH VS ARH duel when you are on the SARH side of the equation. Discussed are the basics of the Russian SPO-15 Radar Warning System (WRS), the importance of the cockpit clock (stopwatch), and how to mount an aggressive defense."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[S77th-konkussion]

Somewhat, yes. The majority of the Beryoza LED's reflect the PRIMARY threat ONLY. When you receive a launch warning- The Beryoza shows you the direction (relative bearing), the signal strength of the firing platform (SARH) While not perfect- you can estimate the range using the signal strength. SU's & the Eagle- every LED NOT lit is about 13-15 km away. Migs are CLOSER because they emit a weaker signal.

 

 

When it's an active missile- this becomes the primary threat displayed. When all the LED's light up- so do you. :bye_3:

 

So basically you get the threat on your wingtips, to force constant correction on the part of the missile bleeding energy all the way. This little tip becomes less and less relavent as the distances close- at some point you have to either attack, or get the hell outta there.

[159th_Viper]

Aye - to confirm what S77th-konkussion said:

 

Herewith a Chart compiled by 159th_Jojo that is pretty self-explanatory. Should help a wee bitty :)

 

 

 

 

Herewith also a diagram of the Beryoza with a few pointers:

 

[S77th-konkussion]

Yes- I should mention that I am focused on flyable multiplayer aircraft, because that's what I do.

 

AI aircraft such as the Tomcat, Mig 31, AWACS, A-50 these all have very powerful radars and will be further away than the "rule of thumb" I mentioned.

[Alexrey]

Thanks for the link 159th_Viper, I'll probably try download if it has resume support. Otherwise it's pointless since my little wireless connection is very unstable.

 

159th_Viper does the +7 at the top of the table mean that 14 LEDs have been lit up, and -7 means that none have been lit up and that (in the case of an Su-27) the enemy is approximately 213km away?

 

I did a few tests with labels on using the Su-27, and it seems as though the last bar lights up when the missile is about 7km away. Pity that the scale is so big. :( Are there any modes that can change the scale of the SPO-15LM (e.g. change it so that one LED lit up means that the threat is 2km closer instead of 7km)? The reason I ask is because what I usually do to try and evade missiles is wait until it's about 2km away and then I pull a high G roll and turn which works about 80% of the time and then once I've evaded the missile I'm in a good position to fire one of my own.

[GGTharos]

What, you mean head-on? That's problem number one in that case. ;)

 

The reason I ask is because what I usually do to try and evade missiles is wait until it's about 2km away and then I pull a high G roll and turn which works about 80% of the time and then once I've evaded the missile I'm in a good position to fire one of my own.

[Dudikoff]

I did a few tests with labels on using the Su-27, and it seems as though the last bar lights up when the missile is about 7km away. Pity that the scale is so big. :( Are there any modes that can change the scale of the SPO-15LM (e.g. change it so that one LED lit up means that the threat is 2km closer instead of 7km)?

 

Unless you hacked the loadout so that the Su-27 carries the R-77 missiles, what you've been tracking is the plane, not the missile as the RWR can't detect a SARH-guided missile since it doesn't emit any radiation.

[IvanK]

Viper Nice Chart thanks for sharing, but what do the Negative numbers refer too ?

 

As for interpretation of the chart that stumps me a bit do. Is this correct:

 

I am in my SU27 and I get illuminated by an F18, I have 7 Primary threat power lights illumnated, I deduce he is 9Km away ?

 

There are 14 power lights on the panel I dont see how this fits into the chart.

[GGTharos]

0 is the light at the top.

[IvanK]

Ok got it

[Alexrey]

Unless you hacked the loadout so that the Su-27 carries the R-77 missiles, what you've been tracking is the plane, not the missile as the RWR can't detect a SARH-guided missile since it doesn't emit any radiation.

So the RWR/RWS cannot track incoming missiles? That isn't much help! :noexpression: I can't believe that in the age of missiles they haven't even developed a way to know how far they are from your multi-million dollar fighter...

[159th_Viper]

So the RWR/RWS cannot track incoming missiles? That isn't much help! :noexpression: I can't believe that in the age of missiles they haven't even developed a way to know how far they are from your multi-million dollar fighter...

 

Can track ARH (AIM-120, R-77 etc etc). Cannot track SARH (AIM-7, R27-ER, R27EM etc etc).

 

And not even a prayer when it comes to the R27-ET, and as a Toad-Pilot, my personal favourite, the R-73!

[A.S]

Aye - to confirm what S77th-konkussion said:

 

Herewith a Chart compiled by 159th_Jojo that is pretty self-explanatory. Should help a wee bitty :)

 

 

 

 

Herewith also a diagram of the Beryoza with a few pointers:

 

 

we have the same once made internal but this one is even better ..thx you very much !!

[Alexrey]

Can track ARH (AIM-120, R-77 etc etc). Cannot track SARH (AIM-7, R27-ER, R27EM etc etc).

 

And not even a prayer when it comes to the R27-ET, and as a Toad-Pilot, my personal favourite, the R-73!

Damn that sucks! So how can I figure out how far an ARH missile is from me using the RWS? And is there a way to figure out how far an SARH missile is from me?

[159th_Viper]

Damn that sucks! So how can I figure out how far an ARH missile is from me using the RWS? And is there a way to figure out how far an SARH missile is from me?

 

Once the ARH goes active it becomes the Primary Threat on your RWR and your 'Light Strip' will start counting down like nobody's business..........trust me - you cannot miss it. Illustrated in detail in Ironhands vid - if you like I can put together a track for you to watch which illustrates it nicely if you're having problems with the vid download :)

 

As for SARH - your MLWS will tell you when a launch has occured. The tone as well as the flashing lock light indicates an incoming missile. Now you should know possibly which plane you're up against so with the chart and having regard to your RWR, you can work out approx how far the Primary threat is from you - ie plane that has just launched. If he has launched a SARH you can work out how far the missile has to travel and consequently how fast the missile will take to reach you.

 

Now with the AI you pretty much can take it for granted that they will fire at RMAX and not again until the missile has actually hit or missed so it's pretty easy to work it out after a while - with that said keep in mind that all the above as I stated applies to the offline singleplayer environment - Online play against Human Opfor is a whole different ball-game!

[Ironhand]

So the RWR/RWS cannot track incoming missiles? That isn't much help! I can't believe that in the age of missiles they haven't even developed a way to know how far they are from your multi-million dollar fighter...

As mentioned, the Beriosa tracks the radar transmitter. It's telling you where that transmitter is located (mostly in terms of right-left and, in the RusFor aircraft, a bit of up-down, too). You also get an idea of how far away that transmitter is, mostly in terms of signal strength (assuming the system considers him to be the primary threat.

 

Next, there are two types of radar-guided missiles: SARH and ARH. The former are Semi-Active Radar Homing. They are like a hound following a scent. The "scent", in this case, are the radar waves that are reflecting back toward it from your aircraft. The launching aircraft is sending a lot of high-energy radar waves in your direction. Your RWR is telling you all about that radar. Some of that radar energy is bouncing off your aircraft and reflecting directly back in his direction. That SARH missile is sniffing out that reflected radar energy and following the trail toward your aircraft. It transmits no radar energy of its own. So your RWR doesn't know it's there.

 

ARH (Active Radar Homing) missiles are different--and it's that difference that makes them unique to your RWR. They have a small radar transmitter of their own. Because the missile's radar is not very powerful, it has to be close to you before the reflected radar energy (scent) of its onboard radar is strong enough for it to "sniff" and follow.

 

OK. So the enemy aircraft launches an ARH from a distance. Depending on the type of platform doing the launching, you may or may not get a launch warning. Regardless, the Beriosa is telling you about the only radar it can "see"--the radar of the launching platform. Most likely, it's radar is considered (by the system) to be the primary threat, so you are also getting a reading of the signal strength and, therefore, distance to the launching platform. At this point, the ARH missile is still silent--not transmitting. Your RWR doesn't know that it's there. The launching aircraft is still guiding it.

 

When that ARH missile gets close enough, it turns on its own radar, locks onto you and starts guiding toward you by tracking the reflections of the radar energy it's sending toward you. In your cockpit, the Beriosa suddenly sees this new radar energy source. It identifies it as 1) an airborne radar and 2) a tracking radar and 3) the closest tracking radar. No matter what else the Beriosa has considered to be the "primary" threat up to that point, that ARH missile now becomes the PRIMARY THREAT.

 

If you are fortunate enough to be looking down at the Beriosa at the moment the ARH missile turns on its radar, you will see the signal strength indicator on the Beriosa drop back to almost zero and then start climbing rapidly as the ARH missile rapidly closes the range (much more rapidly than an aircraft can). When the signal strength reaches the next to the last bar, that ARH missile is on your figurative doorstep and you need maneuver--hard.

 

So ARH missiles are easy--figuratively speaking. They announce both their presence and location--to the extent that any radar platform does--to the Beriosa when they turn on their onboard radars. SARH missiles never announce their presence because they transmit no energy of their own for the Beriosa to sense. So they remain invisible to the system. You can infer their presence but the system can't show you where they are.

 

Rich

[concrete]

here is a great ilustration, but in serbian, but there are diagrams, pictures too....

i think that it is well enough to understand some things....

 

it is not finished, in time...

 

 

look under ...

 

http://www.serbianeagles.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=45&Itemid=144

 

http://www.serbianeagles.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=86&Itemid=145

 

 

 

 

 

Courtesy of http://www.serbianeagles.com & "the man who do bussiness"----------- =SE=blackG

 

serbianeagles great job !!!

[159th_Viper]

Here we go - a track of an engagement with an AI F15 set to excellent. Have a look at the RWR after the launch of the Eagle. Approx 10 secs into the Mig's dive the ARH goes active - and you can see the Light Strip count down rapidly. When the counter is on the second to last bar, the Mig manouevers hard, defeating the AMRAAM and consequently the Eagle. Illustrates using the RWR to defeat the incoming missile as per Ironhands' tutorial.

 

MIG vs F15

[jonob66]

I'm glad folks are finding the chart useful. One thing to mentioned to those new to SPO 15 is that you need to be aware of the fact that when you bank at 45 degrees for more than 8 seconds you'll loose the radar painting you. Same with climbing and diving. This is due to the limit the RWR detectors.

 

I find that with R27s you must be reacting to the other AC thats trying to guide the missile on to you. Force him to go beyond the gimbal limits of his radar and the missile will loose lock.

 

If someone shoots a 120 or R77 then you want to focus on the missile; make it work hard and loose energy.

 

I have another chart for ground / ship based threats. If anyone is interested PM me.

[GGTharos]

In fact, the LOMAC SPO is much better than the real one ... it won't give you false warnings, miss real missiles coming at you, and won't present you with wonky 'range' when this happens.

 

So the RWR/RWS cannot track incoming missiles? That isn't much help! :noexpression: I can't believe that in the age of missiles they haven't even developed a way to know how far they are from your multi-million dollar fighter...

[Alexrey]

Once the ARH goes active it becomes the Primary Threat on your RWR and your 'Light Strip' will start counting down like nobody's business..........trust me - you cannot miss it. Illustrated in detail in Ironhands vid - if you like I can put together a track for you to watch which illustrates it nicely if you're having problems with the vid download :)

 

As for SARH - your MLWS will tell you when a launch has occured. The tone as well as the flashing lock light indicates an incoming missile. Now you should know possibly which plane you're up against so with the chart and having regard to your RWR, you can work out approx how far the Primary threat is from you - ie plane that has just launched. If he has launched a SARH you can work out how far the missile has to travel and consequently how fast the missile will take to reach you.

 

Now with the AI you pretty much can take it for granted that they will fire at RMAX and not again until the missile has actually hit or missed so it's pretty easy to work it out after a while - with that said keep in mind that all the above as I stated applies to the offline singleplayer environment - Online play against Human Opfor is a whole different ball-game!

 

As mentioned, the Beriosa tracks the radar transmitter. It's telling you where that transmitter is located (mostly in terms of right-left and, in the RusFor aircraft, a bit of up-down, too). You also get an idea of how far away that transmitter is, mostly in terms of signal strength (assuming the system considers him to be the primary threat.

 

Next, there are two types of radar-guided missiles: SARH and ARH. The former are Semi-Active Radar Homing. They are like a hound following a scent. The "scent", in this case, are the radar waves that are reflecting back toward it from your aircraft. The launching aircraft is sending a lot of high-energy radar waves in your direction. Your RWR is telling you all about that radar. Some of that radar energy is bouncing off your aircraft and reflecting directly back in his direction. That SARH missile is sniffing out that reflected radar energy and following the trail toward your aircraft. It transmits no radar energy of its own. So your RWR doesn't know it's there.

 

ARH (Active Radar Homing) missiles are different--and it's that difference that makes them unique to your RWR. They have a small radar transmitter of their own. Because the missile's radar is not very powerful, it has to be close to you before the reflected radar energy (scent) of its onboard radar is strong enough for it to "sniff" and follow.

 

OK. So the enemy aircraft launches an ARH from a distance. Depending on the type of platform doing the launching, you may or may not get a launch warning. Regardless, the Beriosa is telling you about the only radar it can "see"--the radar of the launching platform. Most likely, it's radar is considered (by the system) to be the primary threat, so you are also getting a reading of the signal strength and, therefore, distance to the launching platform. At this point, the ARH missile is still silent--not transmitting. Your RWR doesn't know that it's there. The launching aircraft is still guiding it.

 

When that ARH missile gets close enough, it turns on its own radar, locks onto you and starts guiding toward you by tracking the reflections of the radar energy it's sending toward you. In your cockpit, the Beriosa suddenly sees this new radar energy source. It identifies it as 1) an airborne radar and 2) a tracking radar and 3) the closest tracking radar. No matter what else the Beriosa has considered to be the "primary" threat up to that point, that ARH missile now becomes the PRIMARY THREAT.

 

If you are fortunate enough to be looking down at the Beriosa at the moment the ARH missile turns on its radar, you will see the signal strength indicator on the Beriosa drop back to almost zero and then start climbing rapidly as the ARH missile rapidly closes the range (much more rapidly than an aircraft can). When the signal strength reaches the next to the last bar, that ARH missile is on your figurative doorstep and you need maneuver--hard.

 

So ARH missiles are easy--figuratively speaking. They announce both their presence and location--to the extent that any radar platform does--to the Beriosa when they turn on their onboard radars. SARH missiles never announce their presence because they transmit no energy of their own for the Beriosa to sense. So they remain invisible to the system. You can infer their presence but the system can't show you where they are.

 

Rich

 

Thanks for your informative replies! :thumbup: I downloaded your Surviving the Duel video Ironhand and it helped out a lot. After that I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer it if an ARH was coming for me instead of an SARH!

 

Here we go - a track of an engagement with an AI F15 set to excellent. Have a look at the RWR after the launch of the Eagle. Approx 10 secs into the Mig's dive the ARH goes active - and you can see the Light Strip count down rapidly. When the counter is on the second to last bar, the Mig manouevers hard, defeating the AMRAAM and consequently the Eagle. Illustrates using the RWR to defeat the incoming missile as per Ironhands' tutorial.

 

MIG vs F15

 

Thanks to uploading that track Viper! What version of Lock-On is it for? I have v1.02 and all I got was a whole lot of blue sky and then after a while the woman said "left engine fire, right engine fire..." . If it's for Flaming Cliffs then I'll have to wait a little longer since 214th Hitman donated his Flaming Cliffs to me, and Ruggbutt posted it to me a few days ago. :D Should me here in about a month. Can't wait!

 

So when it comes to an SARH missile it's a guessing game? Is there no definite way of knowing how far and where it is from you like the ARH? Is the only technique to try and count the seconds it would take to reach you? Would the missile padlock help at all?

[159th_Viper]

Aye-recorded with 1.12a :)

 

As I said - applies to AI only. Trust me - in a Multiplayer environment against a skilled opponent you do not want to be on the receiving end of an Adder.

 

Usually the first indication you have of a Bandit is when the Missile goes active and by then it's just about to crawl up your tailpipe so there's not a hell of a lot you can do except to bury your head between your legs and Kiss your Ass goodbye............

 

Reminds me of a Squad Flight where 159th_Fudd vapourized a 4-Ship of T-Frogs shortly after take-Off with R-77's. Trust me - one second you're o.k. - the next your RWR lights up like a Christmas tree and before you have a chance to say WTF you're toast.

 

Good Times :D

[Ironhand]

...Reminds me of a Squad Flight where 159th_Fudd vapourized a 4-Ship of T-Frogs shortly after take-Off with R-77's. Trust me - one second you're o.k. - the next your RWR lights up like a Christmas tree and before you have a chance to say WTF you're toast.

:) I was on the receiving end of something like that once. I had just hooked up on the ground with another player--both of us in Su-27s. We taxied very prettily to the runway. Took our positions. Throttled up. Rolled down the runway in perfect formation. Started climbing out with him slightly ahead and below me. I glanced down into the pit to make sure my wheels were up and locked.

 

Suddenly: BOOM! Looked up and saw a fireball where my partner had been a second before. Before I could say: "WTF?!" I was in F-11 view myself. My first thought was that I'd had a mid-air. Then I saw the text indicating I had been downed by an R-27ET. :) Stealth. Gotta love it.

 

(I was recording the flight. When I reviewed it, I found an enemy Su-27 stooging around the base waiting for unsuspecting players to takeoff. No indication of radar emissions. So he was either visual or IRST all the way.)

 

Rich

[S77th-konkussion]

So when it comes to an SARH missile it's a guessing game? Is there no definite way of knowing how far and where it is from you like the ARH? Is the only technique to try and count the seconds it would take to reach you? Would the missile padlock help at all?

 

Be confident that the missile is CLOSER to you than the plane is. :megalol: