AIM-54 Changes / new API fixes are live in today's patch

[GGTharos]

Yeah my understanding, and correct me if I 'm wrong is that the "DL" is an encoded waveform transmitted by the radar that the missile picks up.

 

Yep. Anything picking up that radar will pick it up. The missile specifically looks for the STT + guidance so it can extract the doppler shift when SARH, and of course the DL during mid-course. The DL is inserted (AFAIK) between the radar pulses, just like the guidance signal would be. You can do things to include both, but I don't know if that happens or when. Obviously in TWS you have to get up to 6 DL signals out there, which might be why the update rate to the missile drops.

[dundun92]

 

Yep. Anything picking up that radar will pick it up. The missile specifically looks for the STT + guidance so it can extract the doppler shift when SARH, and of course the DL during mid-course. The DL is inserted (AFAIK) between the radar pulses, just like the guidance signal would be. You can do things to include both, but I don't know if that happens or when. Obviously in TWS you have to get up to 6 DL signals out there, which might be why the update rate to the missile drops.

 

So slightly OT but considering this would it be fair to say that ARH missiles in general (like the AMRAAM) launched in STT should give launch warnings to the STT spiked fighter?

[GGTharos]

So slightly OT but considering this would it be fair to say that ARH missiles in general (like the AMRAAM) launched in STT should give launch warnings to the STT spiked fighter?

 

IMHO yes.

[Triggerjo23]

 

Yes it is a signal that the RWR will sense - it's an RF transmission made by the very same radar antenna that's tracking the target, so why wouldn't the RWR detect it?

No it can't tell you that the missile is being launched at you specifically when the radar is TWS, but STT plus that signal is a dead giveaway.

 

The RWR does not detect data link signal as is does not come from the radar. As I said, if that was the case then your RWR would know every time a missile was fired in TWS too, which is not the case is it. I don't think there should be an argument on this part, DL is not sensed by an RWR. If it is transmited by the target then the same issue airses, why can you not sense a TWS missile being fired if that is the case. TWS tracking is done via DL too.

[GGTharos]

The RWR does not detect data link signal as is does not come from the radar.

 

For decades, M-links have been emitted by the radar. Where do you believe it comes from?

 

As I said, if that was the case then your RWR would know every time a missile was fired in TWS too, which is not the case is it.

 

Sure it is, it just doesn't can't find any other information to know that the missile is specifically targetted at you instead of the other 50 tracks on that F-14's scope.

 

I don't think there should be an argument on this part, DL is not sensed by an RWR.

 

There isn't an argument, you're wrong.

 

If it is transmited by the target then the same issue airses, why can you not sense a TWS missile being fired if that is the case. TWS tracking is done via DL too.

 

No one is saying it can't sense it. Just that the RWR has no additional data to tell you that this missile is coming for you and not someone else (and here you can debate 'but I'd like to know if anyone pops off a missile in TWS' vs 'but what if there's 50 F-14's firing and I'm not the target of all of them' and what you'd like the RWR software to consider as evidence that you're being attacked) - while STT would make it pretty darn obvious that you're the subject of belligerence.

[Triggerjo23]

 

And this is what I'm saying. The D/L receiver of the Phoenix is in the back of the missile and the target does not need to be illuminated by an extra guidence signal for that. It's literally a STT track which determines the flyout. You also don't need to hit the target directly in any way - you have a 61kg warhead + proxy fuse. Regardless, without clear documentation we will never know for sure about these mecahnics.

 

Yes exactly, and considering the fact that TWS missiles are tracking using DL it would if Tharos is right give the target a missile warning or there should be at least some indication that a missile is in the air. Also, considering that if you fire on a cranking opponent who then turns in whilst speeding up then they could potentialy get inside the 16 seconds TTI or even below. In that case the missile impact point would be close to or before the TTI reaches 16 seconds which would mean either very brief or no missile warning as the missile only goes active at sixteen seconds. The missile must be able to hit that target whilst guided via DL or missiles would be defeated far too easily.

 

We are asking the same question and I think only HB can realy answer it definitively. Iron Mike has disapeared though. :(

[Triggerjo23]

 

For decades, M-links have been emitted by the radar. Where do you believe it comes from?

Sure it is, it just doesn't can't find any other information to know that the missile is specifically targetted at you instead of the other 50 tracks on that F-14's scope.

There isn't an argument, you're wrong.

No one is saying it can't sense it. Just that the RWR has no additional data to tell you that this missile is coming for you and not someone else (and here you can debate 'but I'd like to know if anyone pops off a missile in TWS' vs 'but what if there's 50 F-14's firing and I'm not the target of all of them' and what you'd like the RWR software to consider as evidence that you're being attacked) - while STT would make it pretty darn obvious that you're the subject of belligerence.

 

Then you should still get a warning to tell you a missile is in the air. It would be stupid not too if you had the capability to sense a missile fired in TWS even if you do not know who it is fired on. The A-10 can sense missiles being fired the principle occurs here. They are not always sure they are the target but the missile warning is given anyway. You know why?.. becuase it is the safe thing to do rather than take a missile to the face. Also, how many Jets are injecting DL signal into the enviroment from all directions. The missile will recieve the DL signal via an address just like every other DL recieving object. With all of the signals being sent out I doubt very much an RWR will be able to tell the diference between the backround signal from everyone elses DL. DL transmission should not give an RWR warning because it should not be distinguishable from the backreound noise unless you can decode it. If you are unwilling to link documentation then we won't get an aswer will we. If you won't link any documentation then what you are saying simply seems like it is speculation rather than fact, so help us out and link where you learned what you are saying.

[Skysurfer]

The real question is what is the difference between TWS and PDSTT D/L guidence? I always asumed it was refresh rate + obviously the active command at 16TTI in TWS.

[Triggerjo23]

The real question is what is the difference between TWS and PDSTT D/L guidence? I always asumed it was refresh rate + obviously the active command at 16TTI in TWS.

 

Yes precisely my question. The DL transmission should mean no missile warning and the PD-STT should mean more accurate and faster refresh to the missile guidence. That seems logical to me but we won't know if we are wron unless we get an answer from HB or actual linked documentation. The DL signal would not be enough to tell the targeted aircraft that a missile has been launched as there is so many other DL transmitting objects in the enviroment. Also, the DL signal is not spotlighted either or else the radar would not be in PD-STT on the targeted aircraft so it is not like the signal would be any stronger or anything.

 

The higher fidelity tracking information from PD-STT means the missile does not have to go active. No of course this could all be wrong but I don't have any documentation to say otherwise.

[GGTharos]

The real question is what is the difference between TWS and PDSTT D/L guidence? I always asumed it was refresh rate + obviously the active command at 16TTI in TWS.

 

It isn't relevant. You have he DL signal, and you have either STT or TWS.

[Skysurfer]

 

It isn't relevant. You have he DL signal, and you have either STT or TWS.

 

No, it is very relevant.

[M0ltar]

 

Then you should still get a warning to tell you a missile is in the air. It would be stupid not too if you had the capability to sense a missile fired in TWS even if you do not know who it is fired on. The A-10 can sense missiles being fired the principle occurs here. They are not always sure they are the target but the missile warning is given anyway. You know why?.. becuase it is the safe thing to do rather than take a missile to the face. Also, how many Jets are injecting DL signal into the enviroment from all directions. The missile will recieve the DL signal via an address just like every other DL recieving object. With all of the signals being sent out I doubt very much an RWR will be able to tell the diference between the backround signal from everyone elses DL. DL transmission should not give an RWR warning because it should not be distinguishable from the backreound noise unless you can decode it. If you are unwilling to link documentation then we won't get an aswer will we. If you won't link any documentation then what you are saying simply seems like it is speculation rather than fact, so help us out and link where you learned what you are saying.

 

I’m pretty sure the A10 warning system has nothing to do with rwr or anything like it. I was under the impression that it detects acoustics from motor ignitions and other ground fire primarily below the aircraft. From what I remember the system was designed to detect close in SAM, surface small arms and manpad launches. Therefore, because it simply detects acoustics it can’t tell who the target is so it issues a blanket warning in the event of any detection.

[Harlikwin]

 

Yep. Anything picking up that radar will pick it up. The missile specifically looks for the STT + guidance so it can extract the doppler shift when SARH, and of course the DL during mid-course. The DL is inserted (AFAIK) between the radar pulses, just like the guidance signal would be. You can do things to include both, but I don't know if that happens or when. Obviously in TWS you have to get up to 6 DL signals out there, which might be why the update rate to the missile drops.

 

Yup, and using that logic if you have "smart" RWR you'll get some sort of warning too since the guidance information will "show up" as well. Assuming your RWR is smart enough to know what to look for.

[Triggerjo23]

 

I’m pretty sure the A10 warning system has nothing to do with rwr or anything like it. I was under the impression that it detects acoustics from motor ignitions and other ground fire primarily below the aircraft. From what I remember the system was designed to detect close in SAM, surface small arms and manpad launches. Therefore, because it simply detects acoustics it can’t tell who the target is so it issues a blanket warning in the event of any detection.

 

Yeah my point there was not that it gets an RWR warning, my point was that it has a sensor which simply tells it that a missile has been launched. Someone was trying to make the argument that you should not get a warning if you don't know who the target is and I was stating that as an example to the contrary.

[FWind]

COMPUTER DESIGN REQUIREMENTS FOR DIGITAL AIR -TO -AIR MISSILES *

BY

Bruce A. Hall, Frank J. Langley, and Knut 0. Wefald

Raytheon Company, Missile Systems Division

Hartwell, Road, Bedford, Mass. 01730

https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/6.1976-1977

It will show something about AIM-54A and AIM-54C

[GGTharos]

 

Yup, and using that logic if you have "smart" RWR you'll get some sort of warning too since the guidance information will "show up" as well. Assuming your RWR is smart enough to know what to look for.

 

Sure, there could be a symbol for 'guidance link' or something of the sort. No one's seen one in any RWR documentation (of which there's very little) or maybe the SAM or AI light would blink without an STT/launch warning, who knows? So, you can speculate about what it might or should or basically, what you want it to do, but that's not stuff we know of.

 

RWRs have been smart enough to do a interesting things for a very long time, but even then some human interpretation is required.

[M0ltar]

 

Yeah my point there was not that it gets an RWR warning, my point was that it has a sensor which simply tells it that a missile has been launched. Someone was trying to make the argument that you should not get a warning if you don't know who the target is and I was stating that as an example to the contrary.

 

That makes sense and is something I would want too as a pilot. Knowing a threat is out there even if it’s generalized is much better than no knowledge at all.

[Harlikwin]

 

Sure, there could be a symbol for 'guidance link' or something of the sort. No one's seen one in any RWR documentation (of which there's very little) or maybe the SAM or AI light would blink without an STT/launch warning, who knows? So, you can speculate about what it might or should or basically, what you want it to do, but that's not stuff we know of.

 

RWRs have been smart enough to do a interesting things for a very long time, but even then some human interpretation is required.

 

Yeah, we don't have that in DCS, and who knows if we will. I mean with the advent of GPS/INS/ and virtual baselines RWRs should be able to angle rate tracking too. Which is maybe sorta modeled.

[Kula66]

Ok, I only have a very basic understanding of radar, but have a question: in TWS mode the radar is scanning an area of sky around the target (TWS-A), if I fire a couple of 54s and they loft to 65k', they go high above the radar scan volume ... so how do they receive updates if they are way above the radar scan cone if this is encoded in the radar signal?

[KlarSnow]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_lobe

[GGTharos]

Ok, I only have a very basic understanding of radar, but have a question: in TWS mode the radar is scanning an area of sky around the target (TWS-A), if I fire a couple of 54s and they loft to 65k', they go high above the radar scan volume ... so how do they receive updates if they are way above the radar scan cone if this is encoded in the radar signal?

 

Sniped by KlarSnow, but maybe a more simple explanation:

 

The radar radiates in every direction, but the mainlobe gets the vast majority of the radiated power. So, the DL signal is radiated along with the radar signal, but you don't need it to be very powerful because you're only expecting to pick it up and decode it, you don't need it to bounce off a target and come back. So, the DL power on the sidelobes is enough for the missile's DL antenna to pick up that signal.

[Kula66]

Ok, thanks both!

[sublime]

 

TWS will always be a bad option for maneuvering targets, atm no changes are planned, so how it handles such situations will be as it is now.

 

 

will the TTI finally flash when missiles are pitbull?

[captain_dalan]

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the F-15 RWR already provide a missile launch warning when being fired upon in TWS?

[GGTharos]

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the F-15 RWR already provide a missile launch warning when being fired upon in TWS?

 

No, nothing does.