F-16 HAARM range/OK to fire - when?

[ACME_WIdgets]

So I'm just learning the F-16, and tried the AGM88 HAARM a few times, with no success.
I can lock on to an emitter just fine, but I have no idea when I'm in range with the HAARM.
Yes, I'm fast and high up. So theoretically 60-80nm max range.
When the HUD rectangle at the bottom blinks, does that mean HAARM is in range?
Is putting the target in the middle of the X on the left MFD better than nose up 15 degrees to help the loft off the rail?
Thx all !

[Jester2138]

If you're firing in HAS mode then the systems have no idea how far away the emitter is, so you just have to guess.

[Mustang25]

2 hours ago, ACME_Widgets said:

Yes, I'm fast and high up. So theoretically 60-80nm max range.

 

You're not going to get that kind of distance in HAS. Expect about 35 miles at 30k ft. And it's not going to loft in HAS mode either so as long as the HARM sensor picks it up that's all that matters as far as nose positioning goes.

[_SteelFalcon_]

I go by the rule of thumb of 1nm range per 1k ft altitude and speed at around .8-1.0 mach and have pretty good success with it. 

[5ephir0th]

You can do it the hard way: wait until the SAM shoots you, that way you are as close as you can

[Florence201]

If you wait for the tracking radar then you’re in range with HAS

[Jester2138]

11 hours ago, 5ephir0th said:

You can do it the hard way: wait until the SAM shoots you, that way you are as close as you can

Also guaranteed that the radar is emitting! Warning: not recommended if using an IADS script!

Edited January 20, 2021 by Jester2138

[Flyboy220]

As explained by Jester2138, in HAS mode no range information about the enemy SAM is available.

 

The AGM-88 locks on to the enemy radar emitter and upon launch simply goes after the emitting signal in a more or less ballistic trajectory.

For the ballistic trajectory, the range of the AGM-88 mainly depends on it's launch altitude and angle, the aircraft speed (M) and the missile speed (M_missile).

The higher and faster the aircraft flies, the higher the range of the missile will be.

 

In DCS, the AGM-88 appears to be modeled as a missile in the Mach 2 regime (M_missile=2,0).

The graph below is a simple estimation of the maximum ballistic range of the AGM-88, depending on the launch altitude and two exemplary aircraft flight speeds (M=0,9 and M=1,3).

No LOFT mode is considered here, just a simple horizontal launch.

 

 

At altitude (>30000ft) a maximum range of 25nm or more should be possible, which is sufficient to keep out of the missile range of medium range SAM systems like an SA-11.

However, its probably not a good idea to go up against a long range SAM system like an S-300.

 

Happy SEADing!

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Flyboy220

[Florence201]

Testing has proven greater ranges than depicted here. M0.9 and 30000’ will give you 35nm range. Going higher then increases this

[Hardcard]

On 1/20/2021 at 3:39 AM, ACME_Widgets said:

Yes, I'm fast and high up. So theoretically 60-80nm max range.

  

Like others have said, you'll never hit anything at 60+nm (even 30nm is already pushing it).

 

I also recommend that you wait until the enemy SAM site fires at you, for three reasons:

1- To ensure you're in range (will work for most SAMs, except for SA-10, Patriot, Perry, Ticonderoga and Moskva, which will fire at ~40nm, unless you're using ECM)

2- To ensure your HARM will have a radar signal to lock on to.

3- To use the HARM as countermeasure. (Depending on the mission, SAM radars might turn off upon detecting a HARM launch, forcing SAM missiles to lose lock and self-destruct)

[TobiasA]

Do you get a launch warning from the SA 10 in DCS? Those are track via missile, so they don't trigger a launch warning in real life, making it impossible to tell if they have already fired or not. 

Once the fire control radar comes live, you can assume it has fired or will within seconds.

[Xavven]

23 hours ago, TobiasA said:

Do you get a launch warning from the SA 10 in DCS? Those are track via missile, so they don't trigger a launch warning in real life, making it impossible to tell if they have already fired or not. 

Once the fire control radar comes live, you can assume it has fired or will within seconds.

 

Yes, I get launch warnings against the SA-10.

 

I thought missile launch warnings were based on detecting emissions from the missile's booster, so it wouldn't matter what kind of guidance is being used.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Xavven

[TobiasA]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Xavven:

 

Yes, I get launch warnings against the SA-10.

 

I thought missile launch warnings were based on detecting emissions from the missile's booster, so it wouldn't matter what kind of guidance is being used.

 

Yes, such systems exist, but they work with an active radar to detect incoming objects or detect the flash of the missile launch. But for the RWR in real life the radar signature from the fire control radar does not change so you can't tell if it is tracking or guiding. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track-via-missile

https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-300pmu.htm

Same with the Patriot. 

But I guess it would be difficult to remove the launch warning in all modules for those systems in terms of how the community would react to it. 

[Dragon1-1]

I hope the core updates that are projected to come with the new IADS module will include such changes to make missiles more realistic. Of course, that'll result in some epic whining.

 

IRL, even the basic SA-10 is a monster. TVM, mostly smokeless except right at launch, and the radars don't reliably show up on RWR. The only saving grace is that the FCR has rather poor search capability, meaning that if you see the "10" on RWR, then you might as well assume a launch. Then, your only hope is to hit the deck and either terrain-mask or just get out of there. Oh, and the launchers don't even have to be anywhere near the radars, which means that it's possible to set up a battery so that before the SEAD ships get in HARM range to the radars, they're already in the launcher's NEZ. All that before you get to the upgraded versions. 

[TobiasA]

The only hope is that the launchers run out of missiles pretty fast.

In addition, real life SAM sites are pretty "nested" with SHORAD and smaller air defenses nearby to protect against low strikers which might come through undetected.

Even for some variansts of the SA-2 there is an optical guiding kit which never ever triggers a warning. I have not seen a flight sim with the full IADS capability, although some come close.

[Xavven]

On 1/29/2021 at 12:56 AM, TobiasA said:

Yes, such systems exist, but they work with an active radar to detect incoming objects or detect the flash of the missile launch. But for the RWR in real life the radar signature from the fire control radar does not change so you can't tell if it is tracking or guiding. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track-via-missile

https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-300pmu.htm

Same with the Patriot. 

But I guess it would be difficult to remove the launch warning in all modules for those systems in terms of how the community would react to it. 

 

Are you sure a MWS or MAW needs active radar or even a passive radar receiver at all? The A-10C has the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/AAR-47_Missile_Approach_Warning_System which just detects UV emissions from the rocket motor.

 

I'm not sure if our DCS F-16 bl 50 is supposed to have a launch warning, but I can confirm that I do in fact get a launch warning from an SA-10. Whether that's accurate to real life I'm not qualified to answer.

 

[TobiasA]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Xavven:

 

Are you sure a MWS or MAW needs active radar or even a passive radar receiver at all? The A-10C has the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/AAR-47_Missile_Approach_Warning_System which just detects UV emissions from the rocket motor.

 

I'm not sure if our DCS F-16 bl 50 is supposed to have a launch warning, but I can confirm that I do in fact get a launch warning from an SA-10. Whether that's accurate to real life I'm not qualified to answer.

 

As far as I know, the F-16 doesn't have such a system. For an attack airplane which is constantly threatened by MANPADS that makes sense tho. 

[ACME_WIdgets]

My RedFor AGM-88 hit rate lately is about 1 in 15 missles.  I'm usually at A35+ and M1.2+, the AGM rectangle is flashing on the HUD (whatever that means), with the SAM directly in front of me (at unknown distance)  and this is WITH the SAM emitting (when on RedFor, I can see "P" or "HK" on RWR - no diamond for lock, and I can Lock AGM88 on the target - then steer so locked target is middle of Left MFD crosshairs).

Same hit ratio if I wait until RWR shows MIssle Launch.   I've even tried flying level after launch to SAM and keeping A-G mode ON and it does not help (Just a test).

Often times I know I'm close to the SAM as the Lock in Left AGM starts to drop (I need to dip nose of plane to stay centered in crosshairs).

I need to fly more BluFor to see if the hit ratio is different.

 

Also, typing in the AGM Table(s) when playing RedFor is a royal PIA after every time I'm shot down. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by ACME_Widgets
added Tables when playing "RedFor"

[Sinclair_76]

21 hours ago, TobiasA said:

As far as I know, the F-16 doesn't have such a system. For an attack airplane which is constantly threatened by MANPADS that makes sense tho. 

There's a euro defense manufacturer which has missile approach warning sensors on F-16 rated TER's. Apparantly all EPAF countries have added them to the inventory.

https://www.terma.com/press/news-2017/missile-warning-and-3d-audioanr-for-belgian-defence-f-16/

 

[Xavven]

54 minutes ago, Sinclair_76 said:

There's a euro defense manufacturer which has missile approach warning sensors on F-16 rated TER's. Apparantly all EPAF countries have added them to the inventory.

https://www.terma.com/press/news-2017/missile-warning-and-3d-audioanr-for-belgian-defence-f-16/

 

 

Seems like that would be useful for a wild weasel role. Any idea if that is carried for F-16 SEAD/DEAD?

[TobiasA]

ED announced they are going to model a 2007 US Block 50 so we are probably not gonna see it. 

There are also versions with an integrated ECM which we won't see. And tbh a Block 60 or 70 would be too much for a Tomcat for example. Or a gripen. You just can't throw that in for the sake of balance.