VR Future

[William]

6 hours ago, DutchCoolHand said:

Look at PointCTRL.com and the thread under input/output called VR pointing devices. It works great

 

Hi DutchCoolHand,

 

Thanks for your response, it's interesting things from PointCTRL. But it's not really my question. Let me explain : I don't have a joystick, or throttle control, or rudder. In the planes supplied in the original DCS with the TF51 and the Su 25, with the intermediary of the Oculus Touch, the flight controls can be used (stick and throttle control, the rudder bar remains problematic but not impossible to control on the ground thanks to via a small executable named TouchBinder:

 

On 5/2/2020 at 7:17 PM, THE__PWN3R said:

Not necessarily a mod, but two programs for oculus owners:

 

Touchbinder

Auto oculus touch

 

These will allow you to map keybinds to your oculus controllers, or axis to the thumb sticks, very useful for those who fly solely with touch controllers in VR

 

I fly with rudder pedals and just my touch controls, by binding things like right shift to thumb stick clicks as modifiers (and so on) you have about 30+ bindable keys for your touch controls

 

Touchbinder is very easy to configure and allows simple creation of a script using an online tool, Auto oculus touch is not as easy requiring

some manual script writing which is sometimes complex and time consuming but will allow you to bind joysticks as an axis output, useful for rudder, handy for those who fly solely with VR controllers

 

Link to touchbinder - https://github.com/Graicc/TouchBinder/releases/tag/v1.2.1

 

Link to auto oculus touch - https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/60220/auto-oculus-touch-v0-1-6-latest-release-17-nov-2019

 

Which allows you to map more or less complex keystrokes, preferably by performing a combination with the left trigger, the only key not integrated in the VR mod of DCS) But the problem is that it seems that this interactivity is not yet valid with all the available modules (including those of ED), a list has moreover been made by our friend StevanJ :

 

On 2/28/2021 at 4:32 PM, StevanJ said:

I-16 No

BF109-K4 Yes

FW190-A8 Yes

Spitfire No (could control throttle but not stick)

P47-D Yes (but could only attach to but not move throttle)

P51-D Yes

FW190-D9 Yes

MiG-15bis Yes

F-86F Yes

MiG-19P No

AJS-37 Viggen No

MIG-21bis No

L-39 Yes

F-5E No

Yak-52 Yes

C-101 No

M-2000C No

F-16C Yes

AV-8B Harrier No

F-14B No

FA-18C Yes

A-10C II Yes

JF-17 No

Uh-1H Yes

Mi-8MTV2 Yes

SA-342M No

Ka-50 Yes

If there are any changes to list, id be greatful for the update, so buy the Modules that are touch control compatible and build more campaigns moving forward.

Many thanks.

 

 

I have already been reimbursed by ED for my purchase for the F5-E Tiger II, now impatiently awaiting the next update which should according to Mr. Andrey Filin:

 

"Dear William, Just want to inform you that the connectors for the cockpit sticks have already been fixed in the developer build and will be added in the next DCS World update. Thanks"

 

Let's wait and see, and for now I think one of the most practical solutions has to be the VoiceAttck and VaiCom programs !? A fairly exhaustive list of VR apps and enhancements can be found here >> VR Must Have Mod

 

 

[StevanJ]

18 minutes ago, William said:

 

Hi DutchCoolHand,

 

Thanks for your response, it's interesting things from PointCTRL. But it's not really my question. Let me explain : I don't have a joystick, or throttle control, or rudder. In the planes supplied in the original DCS with the TF51 and the Su 25, with the intermediary of the Oculus Touch, the flight controls can be used (stick and throttle control, the rudder bar remains problematic but not impossible to control on the ground thanks to via a small executable named TouchBinder:

 

 

Which allows you to map more or less complex keystrokes, preferably by performing a combination with the left trigger, the only key not integrated in the VR mod of DCS) But the problem is that it seems that this interactivity is not yet valid with all the available modules (including those of ED), a list has moreover been made by our friend StevanJ :

 

 

I have already been reimbursed by ED for my purchase for the F5-E Tiger II, now impatiently awaiting the next update which should according to Mr. Andrey Filin:

 

"Dear William, Just want to inform you that the connectors for the cockpit sticks have already been fixed in the developer build and will be added in the next DCS World update. Thanks"

 

Let's wait and see, and for now I think one of the most practical solutions has to be the VoiceAttck and VaiCom programs !? A fairly exhaustive list of VR apps and enhancements can be found here >> VR Must Have Mod

 

 

Just out of curiousity who is Andrew Filin?
And what did the last statement mean with regards to 'connectors for the cockpit sticks'?~
Are we getting VR implementation for the F5?

[William]

52 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Just out of curiousity who is Andrew Filin?
And what did the last statement mean with regards to 'connectors for the cockpit sticks'?~
Are we getting VR implementation for the F5?

 

Hi StevanJ,

 

I don't know who he is, but it seems to be legitime after M. Konstantin "const" Borovik from Eagle Dynamics IT Team (cf. link below). Thus it was without doubt parts of ED.

In the F5-E, it possible to manupulate cockpit toogle switch etc. but impossible to catch the joystick and throttle with the Oculus Touch. It's non playable like the TF-51 with Oculus Quest II & Touch.

 

[StevanJ]

41 minutes ago, William said:

 

Hi StevanJ,

 

I don't know who he is, but it seems to be legitime after M. Konstantin "const" Borovik from Eagle Dynamics IT Team (cf. link below). Thus it was without doubt parts of ED.

In the F5-E, it possible to manupulate cockpit toogle switch etc. but impossible to catch the joystick and throttle with the Oculus Touch. It's non playable like the TF-51 with Oculus Quest II & Touch.

 

Ok This sounds like good news!

If youre serious about getting into DCS 'VR' using touch controllers go through @THE__PWN3R's history, he has some good references to VR tools in the game.
For me, if you want to fly with touch controls, Id start with the FA18.
If you enjoy that move to getting a WW2 plane.
Depending on the missions you fly constantly, you can then move towards gaining more modules of that type, The F-16 is another one, thats 'early' and as such its not as rewarding to fly using VRTControls but it can be done well, once youve practiced enough on the FA-18.
Most of the FC3 modules all work with VRTC too, so if youd prefer 'Low Fi' modules, thats a great value pack to start with alongside the SU-25.
The only FC3 module that suffers is the F15, where the joystick 'feels like its too high' in the game.

But if you have the money, Id put all your time into the FA18.
Its the only aircraft i fly online, and you can take out a set of base defences in one flight, 8 JSOW, 2 Small 82's and the gun.
You can also carry (i think) upto 12 A/A missiles if you just wanna stay in the air.
The margins you have for error are huge, it can take heavy landings, A/A refueling is easier, and its agility is astounding.
The benefits of the FA-18 far outweigh any other aircraft, and its so well polished, i doubt you'd want to fly anything else once youve flown it.
It made me put away my HOTAS, it really is that good.
The F-16 is good, but its more like a scalpel, fine and precise.. Its not really a 'first module' its very early into the module, so some functionality isnt there, and using the targetting pod, is way more difficult. It can carry more MAV's but they wont beat the JSOW, Dogfighting in the F16 is 'technically' more difficult to learn- Yet easier to do thanks to a more complicated yet better radar system. Air to air refuelling is tougher in the F-16, but it can be done.

WW2 using VRTC is SUPERB! Its 'next generation' level immersion. Quite honestly, youll never experience flying like you will in a Warbird using VRTC.
Its the closest thing to actually flying a plane. No computer or fly-by wire systems, just you, and the skill of hand- eye co-ordination to beat your opponent.
There are a few issues with WW2 AI, and playing online, but if youre a single player, i dont think youll appreciate anything more than the Warbirds.
Everything in the Warbirds is 'as it was' in the cockpit, and that makes flying so much better.

The HUEY! Get this 3rd. All you can do is takeoff, shoot a few rounds out a puny minigun that only tickles the enemy or fire some rockets, then land.
But the experience of flying the Huey is the nearest thing to actually flying a helicopter, I start with a little left trim, move into a hover, then blast around landing on stupid things.
Its my second most popular module to play.
And its worth every penny.

Im happy to play with one hand on the stick another on the keyboard as im on a laptop most of the time, but i believe the user ive mentioned has actually used tools to 'bind' the keys to his touch controller using the VR tools.
But honestly if i were to start from scratch, Id buy in this order..

FA-18

Warbird (I prefer the FW190D but choose your favourite as they all have differences in the game)
Huey
Then all the maps so i can play them online.
FC3
F-16
A10C2 (Its MASSIVELY complicated compared to other modules, and is currently having issues with VRTC so id keep an eye on this, but its really decent when its working)
Yak-52 (Awesome flight model! But no damage. I let the kids fly this around, a 6 year old can fly it, its that easy! Doesnt do anything but flys and land - So buy in sale)
L39 (Fun but youd rather be in the Yak, its great for doing aerobatics if youd just prefer the flying rather than shooting)

Hope this helps!
 

Edited March 18, 2021 by StevanJ

[StevanJ]

On 2/3/2021 at 9:12 AM, Topo said:

I don't think so.
I think hotas remains the most realistic and most used system, along with a system similar to PointCTRL.

A year ago id have agreed with you, But not now.

A while back i put down my HOTAS, and never looked back.
About 11 months ago, there was only one of us from a squad of 12 that used VRTC, now there are 9 of us that are 'converts'.

And it revolves around that word you mention 'realistic'..

Is it realistic to use the exact same HOTAS for 17 different airframes (including helicopters and warbirds)- No.
Is it more realistic to use actual hand-eye coordination to fly each each different airframe based around actual 'placement' of flightsticks and throttles as you would in the real airframe- Yes.

I get it, the HOTAS is the most popular, and the easiest, I remember just how easy it is to air to air refuel with a HOTAS, looking back it almost feels like i was cheating.
HOTAS has been the peripheral of choice for a long while now, because we havent experienced VR and the use of their controllers -until theyve only been recently made affordable.
And now they are- they are the future. Theyre only going to get better. More functional, More popular.
A year ago, id laugh as the kid i flew with, 'chose' to fly with TControls. He struggled and wrestled with the FA-18 in air/a refuels until one day 'he just did it'.

Like you, id say 'how is that realistic'? To which he's argue that i was using the same flight controls that i used for all my modules, and argued back, how is THAT realistic..
He was right, I had a button for 'gear' instead of a lever, a throttle for a collective, and my 'joystick map' was the same for every aircraft despite it being not like the aircraft at all.
He challenged me- 'Try it for two weeks, and tell me it doesnt feel better- more natural'..

After the two weeks I left my HOTAS on the shelf id put it (a Warthog too).

'Realistic' is defined by being as close to the real thing as possible. VRTC is exactly that despite it still being early on, and the functionality not being entirely there. Buying a £300 HOTAS to have all the buttons on it? You might as well save £300 buy a Quest, and use a keyboard.
The benefits of VR far outweigh the HOTAS, This IS visible when you look at into the VR side of any sims, if you buy a VR headset and decide that you'd still prefer a HOTAS, look to get that next.
But for the first time since i can remember, i can now fly planes from a Laptop and a quest.
Working away has changed for the better.
How much of a benefit is my HOTAS when you compare it to a Quest and a keyboard?

The arguments For and Against touch controls can be made, but they cant be made by anyone who hasnt experienced flying with them.
Learn how to air to air refuel in an F-16 using touch controls, and tell me it felt worse than it did using a HOTAS.

The last 3 guys in my squad still use trackIr, and a HOTAS -i get why, but one of them actually returned their G2, because it made them feel sick, and then they turned around and said the same thing, I prefer TrackIr it feels more realistic.. And all he flies is warbirds on the Storm of War..

Ill happily accept that some people prefer a HOTAS and VR, once they can comfortably air to air refuel in the F-16/FA-18.
But Id think its obvious its far from realistic using a HOTAS in a warbird, or a chopper and the benefits arent that much when you compare the price of a decent HOTAS to a quest and a keyboard.

Maybe im wrong.
Who knows?
 

[William]

6 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Ok This sounds like good news!

If youre serious about getting into DCS 'VR' using touch controllers go through @THE__PWN3R's history, he has some good references to VR tools in the game.
For me, if you want to fly with touch controls, Id start with the FA18.
If you enjoy that move to getting a WW2 plane.
Depending on the missions you fly constantly, you can then move towards gaining more modules of that type, The F-16 is another one, thats 'early' and as such its not as rewarding to fly using VRTControls but it can be done well, once youve practiced enough on the FA-18.
Most of the FC3 modules all work with VRTC too, so if youd prefer 'Low Fi' modules, thats a great value pack to start with alongside the SU-25.
The only FC3 module that suffers is the F15, where the joystick 'feels like its too high' in the game.

But if you have the money, Id put all your time into the FA18.
Its the only aircraft i fly online, and you can take out a set of base defences in one flight, 8 JSOW, 2 Small 82's and the gun.
You can also carry (i think) upto 12 A/A missiles if you just wanna stay in the air.
The margins you have for error are huge, it can take heavy landings, A/A refueling is easier, and its agility is astounding.
The benefits of the FA-18 far outweigh any other aircraft, and its so well polished, i doubt you'd want to fly anything else once youve flown it.
It made me put away my HOTAS, it really is that good.
The F-16 is good, but its more like a scalpel, fine and precise.. Its not really a 'first module' its very early into the module, so some functionality isnt there, and using the targetting pod, is way more difficult. It can carry more MAV's but they wont beat the JSOW, Dogfighting in the FA-18 is 'technically' more difficult to learn- Yet easier to do thanks to a more complicated yet better radar system. Air to air refuelling is tougher in the F-16, but it can be done.

WW2 using VRTC is SUPERB! Its 'next generation' level immersion. Quite honestly, youll never experience flying like you will in a Warbird using VRTC.
Its the closest thing to actually flying a plane. No computer or fly-by wire systems, just you, and the skill of hand- eye co-ordination to beat your opponent.
There are a few issues with WW2 AI, and playing online, but if youre a single player, i dont think youll appreciate anything more than the Warbirds.
Everything in the Warbirds is 'as it was' in the cockpit, and that makes flying so much better.

The HUEY! Get this 3rd. All you can do is takeoff, shoot a few rounds out a puny minigun that only tickles the enemy or fire some rockets, then land.
But the experience of flying the Huey is the nearest thing to actually flying a helicopter, I start with a little left trim, move into a hover, then blast around landing on stupid things.
Its my second most popular module to play.
And its worth every penny.

Im happy to play with one hand on the stick another on the keyboard as im on a laptop most of the time, but i believe the user ive mentioned has actually used tools to 'bind' the keys to his touch controller using the VR tools.
But honestly if i were to start from scratch, Id buy in this order..

FA-18

Warbird (I prefer the FW190D but choose your favourite as they all have differences in the game)
Huey
Then all the maps so i can play them online.
FC3
F-16
A10C2 (Its MASSIVELY complicated compared to other modules, and is currently having issues with VRTC so id keep an eye on this, but its really decent when its working)
Yak-52 (Awesome flight model! But no damage. I let the kids fly this around, a 6 year old can fly it, its that easy! Doesnt do anything but flys and land - So buy in sale)
L39 (Fun but youd rather be in the Yak, its great for doing aerobatics if youd just prefer the flying rather than shooting)

Hope this helps!
 

 

Thanks you StevanJ,

 

When I received your message I'm in YT in tutorial by Grim Reaper very interesting things to do with VoiceAttack in VR I think !!

The L-39 Albatros is the kind of jet I like to know because is of course a training aircraft as well IRL. The warbird era it's all my child memory with my father at La Ferté-Alais show (You know ?) but fly on a FuckerWolf is not my point of view but on the Spitfire for sure ! But it's not fully VR capable now ...

 

I've think about F-16 more than F/A-18 but your speek make it path, but it's an flyng PC. I want a bird to learn fly for acrobatic movement and some dogfight. So after the F5-E TIger II it seems that the L-39 it's a good option ?!

[StevanJ]

34 minutes ago, William said:

 

Thanks you StevanJ,

 

When I received your message I'm in YT in tutorial by Grim Reaper very interesting things to do with VoiceAttack in VR I think !!

The L-39 Albatros is the kind of jet I like to know because is of course a training aircraft as well IRL. The warbird era it's all my child memory with my father at La Ferté-Alais show (You know ?) but fly on a FuckerWolf is not my point of view but on the Spitfire for sure ! But it's not fully VR capable now ...

 

I've think about F-16 more than F/A-18 but your speek make it path, but it's an flyng PC. I want a bird to learn fly for acrobatic movement and some dogfight. So after the F5-E TIger II it seems that the L-39 it's a good option ?!

The Grim Reapers are awesome! Did you see their new Vid 'Carrier Challenge'? So funny!

Okay, So the L39 -Despite being a trainer is actually MUCH harder to fly than the FA-18. Its not really a simple aircraft, only technically simple in that there arent many things to learn. You can fly it- Its pretty nice, But for $60 id probably suggest you wait to buy it in sale. As its a little underwhelming when you compare it to the FA-18.
The FA-18 for the extra $20 is actually MUCH better value.
The L39 can carry A/A, rockets, bombs and guns, and each are quite difficult to set up and use proficiently. Even as a trainer. Once youve learned to use the the munitions, Youll not have much to do.
Its not very fast, not very aggressive, doesnt climb much, not particular fun in online play unless youve had someone else in an F18- clear the SAMS for you, i bought it, because i wanted to fly around syria at low-level and do formation flying and such. Its about as good as the Yak (in my opinion), And while its great Its just NOT as easy to use or GOOD as the FA-18.

The process alone for using guns on the L39 ive forgotten about 6 times. I wouldnt know how to be 'attacking' if i jumped in it again.

The FA-18 for the 25% more cost, will actually keep you busy for about 80% more time. Its not about the aircraft, its about the game.

If you buy the FA-18, youll stay in the game longer, it has a multitude of different munitions and bombs each with a similar yet set way of learning how to use them. It has the ability to work at Land and at Sea, It can perform at long range, it can drop a bomb through a window from 30 miles out, and the philosophy of DCS and air warfare is hard wired into that module.

It can dogfight, bomb, FAC, intercept at short or range, you can send a number of different warheads to a platoon of tanks from 30 miles out then turn around hit the deck fly 30 miles the other way, and take down a squad of jet fighters that are doing there own bomb drop, while you fly at speed (not even in afterburner) through the valleys, only to touch down on deck, catapult up after resupply and start a completely different mission moments later.
Once i played online, we had an FA-18 in lead, take out SAM's with HARM's, then i went in with JSOW's cleared the SAMS, and while my lead was refuelling in the air, i was Lase'ing for our second element who were armed with LGB's.
Once the Lead had refuelled, he came to CAP while i landed, and resupplied and got back into the air to fly on his wing providing cover for a squad of A-10's that had come to take out Tanks on the ground (long day that day).

The game vastly improves with the FA-18. With the L39, Its just about decent.

The systems are intuitive and youll learn them quicker, Dropping a bomb is a few clicks away, launching a mav is a few clicks away, using air to air radar is a few clicks.
The only difficult thing youll do is air to air refuel and once you master that, itll never be difficult..

You might spend $60 on the L39, You might be busy for a few days.
If you spend $80 on the FA-18, Youll be busy for months.

If however you'd prefer that style of aircraft, id more than likely suggest you move to buy Flaming Cliffs 3 first.
The SU-27, will probably fit the needs youre talking about. And the Mig29 is a much better dogfighter (in my opinion) than the F-16, but its a 50/50 split every time.
It might not seem logical to buy the SU27 before the 'L39 trainer' but its a completely different experience, and even if you did buy the L39, there isnt a High Fidelity module to move upto afterwards just yet.

Edited March 18, 2021 by StevanJ

[dburne]

As for me, they will have to pry my HOTAS from my cold dead hands...

[William]

16 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

The Grim Reapers are awesome! Did you see their new Vid 'Carrier Challenge'? So funny!

Okay, So the L39 -Despite being a trainer is actually MUCH harder to fly than the FA-18. Its not really a simple aircraft, only technically simple in that there arent many things to learn. You can fly it- Its pretty nice, But for $60 id probably suggest you wait to buy it in sale. As its a little underwhelming when you compare it to the FA-18.
The FA-18 for the extra $20 is actually MUCH better value.
The L39 can carry A/A, rockets, bombs and guns, and each are quite difficult to set up and use proficiently. Even as a trainer. Once youve learned to use the the munitions, Youll not have much to do.
Its not very fast, not very aggressive, doesnt climb much, not particular fun in online play unless youve had someone else in an F18- clear the SAMS for you, i bought it, because i wanted to fly around syria at low-level and do formation flying and such. Its about as good as the Yak (in my opinion), And while its great Its just NOT as easy to use or GOOD as the FA-18.

The process alone for using guns on the L39 ive forgotten about 6 times. I wouldnt know how to be 'attacking' if i jumped in it again.

The FA-18 for the 25% more cost, will actually keep you busy for about 80% more time. Its not about the aircraft, its about the game.

If you buy the FA-18, youll stay in the game longer, it has a multitude of different munitions and bombs each with a similar yet set way of learning how to use them. It has the ability to work at Land and at Sea, It can perform at long range, it can drop a bomb through a window from 30 miles out, and the philosophy of DCS and air warfare is hard wired into that module.

It can dogfight, bomb, FAC, intercept at short or range, you can send a number of different warheads to a platoon of tanks from 30 miles out then turn around hit the deck fly 30 miles the other way, and take down a squad of jet fighters that are doing there own bomb drop, while you fly at speed (not even in afterburner) through the valleys, only to touch down on deck, catapult up after resupply and start a completely different mission moments later.
Once i played online, we had an FA-18 in lead, take out SAM's with HARM's, then i went in with JSOW's cleared the SAMS, and while my lead was refuelling in the air, i was Lase'ing for our second element who were armed with LGB's.
Once the Lead had refuelled, he came to CAP while i landed, and resupplied and got back into the air to fly on his wing providing cover for a squad of A-10's that had come to take out Tanks on the ground (long day that day).

The game vastly improves with the FA-18. With the L39, Its just about decent.

The systems are intuitive and youll learn them quicker, Dropping a bomb is a few clicks away, launching a mav is a few clicks away, using air to air radar is a few clicks.
The only difficult thing youll do is air to air refuel and once you master that, itll never be difficult..

You might spend $60 on the L39, You might be busy for a few days.
If you spend $80 on the FA-18, Youll be busy for months.

If however you'd prefer that style of aircraft, id more than likely suggest you move to buy Flaming Cliffs 3 first.
The SU-27, will probably fit the needs youre talking about. And the Mig29 is a much better dogfighter (in my opinion) than the F-16, but its a 50/50 split every time.
It might not seem logical to buy the SU27 before the 'L39 trainer' but its a completely different experience, and even if you did buy the L39, there isnt a High Fidelity module to move upto afterwards just yet.

 

 

Thanks a lot for your experiences return ! I'm very new to DCS, but I want to make a good choice, because I know if I want to fly I need to read about 800 pages of manual, and I'm OK with you the F/A-18 is the greatest value for the bucks.

 

I've a question about your choice for utilize the OT, are you make macro with TouchBinder or/and implement others with VoiceAttack ? Because search the right keyboard for something is a pain in the ass things, don't forget I'm a froggy with an AZERTY keyboard . What you can do if you're in my postion ?

 

I finish to view that vid from Spudknocker DCS: World with VoiceAttack and VIACOM PRO 2.5! It's very cool, but I don't understand all things, it seems to don't use ViaCom ?

Edited March 18, 2021 by William

[William]

Other things, but surely not the subject, all the sentence for crew, wingman etc ... Where are they, in aim to setting up them in my Voice Attack setup ?

[BIGNEWY]

Issues with the F-5E and VR controllers are already fixed internally and will be in the next patch. 

 

Thanks

2 hours ago, William said:

 

Hi StevanJ,

 

I don't know who he is, but it seems to be legitime after M. Konstantin "const" Borovik from Eagle Dynamics IT Team (cf. link below). Thus it was without doubt parts of ED.

In the F5-E, it possible to manupulate cockpit toogle switch etc. but impossible to catch the joystick and throttle with the Oculus Touch. It's non playable like the TF-51 with Oculus Quest II & Touch.

 

 

[William]

4 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Issues with the F-5E and VR controllers are already fixed internally and will be in the next patch. 

 

Thanks

 

 

I know, thank you BIGNEWY ! You know maybe when this patch is for ?

 

2 hours ago, William said:

 

Hi StevanJ,

 

I don't know who he is, but it seems to be legitime after M. Konstantin "const" Borovik from Eagle Dynamics IT Team (cf. link below). Thus it was without doubt parts of ED.

In the F5-E, it possible to manupulate cockpit toogle switch etc. but impossible to catch the joystick and throttle with the Oculus Touch. It's non playable like the TF-51 with Oculus Quest II & Touch.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by William

[StevanJ]

3 minutes ago, William said:

 

Thanks a lot for your experiences return ! I'm very new to DCS, but I want to make a good choice, because I know if I want to fly I need to read about 800 pages of manual, and I'm OK with you the F/A-18 is the greatest value for the bucks.

 

I've a question about your choice for utilize the OT, are you make macro with TouchBinder or/and implement others with VoiceAttack ? Because search the right keyboard for something is a pain in the ass things, don't forget I'm a froggy with an AZERTY keyboard . What you can do if you're in my postion ?

 

If you buy the FA-18 You 'could' read the 800 pages of manual, But you wont have to, Its very easy to learn.

I personally just play with my Quest and Keyboard, No Touchbinder, No Voice attack.

If i were you?

 

Buy the FA-18,
Learn how to add bombs (mk82)
Learn to takeoff (with 'Windows + Home' button at first to get you up in the air)
Learn to drop bombs
Go online to a 4YA training server, and bomb enemies using the F10 Map

Learn to use RWR
Learn HARMS (AGM 88c I think)
Go online to a 4Ya training server, take out ground radar from afar

Learn to use MAV's (Mav's AMG65 with the F at the end are easiest)
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and bomb local SAMS (Youll learn basic evasion tactics)

Learn to use JSOWs (AGM 154C)

Go online to a 4Ya training server, and bomb Base Hawks (long range SAM)
Learn to use AGM 62's
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and bomb ships.

Learn to use AMRAAM's
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and shoot small aircraft from far away

Learn Aim 9's
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and shoot the aircraft from upclose

Learn Guns

Go online to a 4Ya training server, and shoot down the guns
Then learn the SA page,
Then learn LGB's

Then Learn to refuel in the air..

Then learn how to properly land (chances are youll not experience this if you play online- Youll get shot down alot)

Then go back and learn how to start the aircraft.
Learn how to tell communicate.
Then learn how to land on the carrier.
Then decide what was the most fun and do it online in a none training server (Growling Sidewinder) where there is no F10 Map, and its just you and the game.
Then learn the Mission Editor and Build your own missions (because we love a contribution back to the community to make the modules more playable)

Is that anyhelp?
Its a checklist to print and tick?

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, William said:

I know, thank you BIGNEWY ! You know maybe when this patch is for ?

 

Open beta 2.7 planned for the end of the month, but if we need more time we will let you all know. 

 

thanks

[StevanJ]

9 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Issues with the F-5E and VR controllers are already fixed internally and will be in the next patch. 

 

Thanks

 

This IS great news.
Good work Eagle Dynamics.

Just a query- will there be any notifications on the modules purchase page or even in the forums (a new VR touch control page in the forum, with a list thats updatable?) that will allow us to know which modules will have some sort of 'touch control support' before purchase..
The last few months have been phenomenal for VR as alot of people got a headset for christmas.

 

In the example of @William i can see more people are getting into the DCS free SU25 with their new VR headset, thinking that all modules are TControl compatible only to find out they arent-

Even if it says something along the line of,
'Stick and throttle support 'in beta for touch controls' -bugs might be expected'

Im aware nothing is perfect in the computer world, but id be interested in buying a couple of modules P47, Spitfire, F5 included as well as a few 3rd party modules if they're coming with that support, and it would be fantastic if there was a notification for us before we purchase or wait for the 'free to play' events.
 

It would stop me from asking the question (will they be touch control compatible?) every few months..
I know the A10c is currently bugged (stick pulls back the second you grab it), as well as the F15 (joystick grips too high), and the CEagle2 (which is 3rd party but doesnt work too well).
Im sure the A10c will be on the update as thats a big one.
Ive asked on the community podcast page, so if its going to be answered in the podcast, ill just wait for that.

 

While we have the superb FA18, i cant ask for more, but the hope of an actual 'VTOL VR' with Razbams awesome harrier is always something a man can dream of.

 

[Topo]

1 hour ago, StevanJ said:

A year ago id have agreed with you, But not now.

A while back i put down my HOTAS, and never looked back.
About 11 months ago, there was only one of us from a squad of 12 that used VRTC, now there are 9 of us that are 'converts'.

And it revolves around that word you mention 'realistic'..

Is it realistic to use the exact same HOTAS for 17 different airframes (including helicopters and warbirds)- No.
Is it more realistic to use actual hand-eye coordination to fly each each different airframe based around actual 'placement' of flightsticks and throttles as you would in the real airframe- Yes.

I get it, the HOTAS is the most popular, and the easiest, I remember just how easy it is to air to air refuel with a HOTAS, looking back it almost feels like i was cheating.
HOTAS has been the peripheral of choice for a long while now, because we havent experienced VR and the use of their controllers -until theyve only been recently made affordable.
And now they are- they are the future. Theyre only going to get better. More functional, More popular.
A year ago, id laugh as the kid i flew with, 'chose' to fly with TControls. He struggled and wrestled with the FA-18 in air/a refuels until one day 'he just did it'.

Like you, id say 'how is that realistic'? To which he's argue that i was using the same flight controls that i used for all my modules, and argued back, how is THAT realistic..
He was right, I had a button for 'gear' instead of a lever, a throttle for a collective, and my 'joystick map' was the same for every aircraft despite it being not like the aircraft at all.
He challenged me- 'Try it for two weeks, and tell me it doesnt feel better- more natural'..

After the two weeks I left my HOTAS on the shelf id put it (a Warthog too).

'Realistic' is defined by being as close to the real thing as possible. VRTC is exactly that despite it still being early on, and the functionality not being entirely there. Buying a £300 HOTAS to have all the buttons on it? You might as well save £300 buy a Quest, and use a keyboard.
The benefits of VR far outweigh the HOTAS, This IS visible when you look at into the VR side of any sims, if you buy a VR headset and decide that you'd still prefer a HOTAS, look to get that next.
But for the first time since i can remember, i can now fly planes from a Laptop and a quest.
Working away has changed for the better.
How much of a benefit is my HOTAS when you compare it to a Quest and a keyboard?

The arguments For and Against touch controls can be made, but they cant be made by anyone who hasnt experienced flying with them.
Learn how to air to air refuel in an F-16 using touch controls, and tell me it felt worse than it did using a HOTAS.

The last 3 guys in my squad still use trackIr, and a HOTAS -i get why, but one of them actually returned their G2, because it made them feel sick, and then they turned around and said the same thing, I prefer TrackIr it feels more realistic.. And all he flies is warbirds on the Storm of War..

Ill happily accept that some people prefer a HOTAS and VR, once they can comfortably air to air refuel in the F-16/FA-18.
But Id think its obvious its far from realistic using a HOTAS in a warbird, or a chopper and the benefits arent that much when you compare the price of a decent HOTAS to a quest and a keyboard.

Maybe im wrong.
Who knows?

 

mmmhh....

I use DCS exclusively in VR, with a Rift S.

Not possible to return on a flat screen with TrackIR; simply not possible for me.

I fly now mostly with the Viper and the Hornet; i try to mimic the real hotas functions with my system (a warthog stick and an X-52Pro throttle, with Saitek pedals), and use the mouse to manipulate the cockpit knobs and buttons, waiting for my PointCTRL.

I think i'll try VRTC, but how you can simulate all the hotas functions? (TMS, DMS, TRIM and so on...)

 

Thanks, and sorry for my english...

[DutchCoolHand]

1 minute ago, Topo said:

 

mmmhh....

I use DCS exclusively in VR, with a Rift S.

Not possible to return on a flat screen with TrackIR; simply not possible for me.

I fly now mostly with the Viper and the Hornet; i try to mimic the real hotas functions with my system (a warthog stick and an X-52Pro throttle, with Saitek pedals), and use the mouse to manipulate the cockpit knobs and buttons, waiting for my PointCTRL.

I think i'll try VRTC, but how you can simulate all the hotas functions? (TMS, DMS, TRIM and so on...)

 

Thanks, and sorry for my english...

And I feel you are waiving your arms in air as you have no feedback

[William]

31 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

If you buy the FA-18 You 'could' read the 800 pages of manual, But you wont have to, Its very easy to learn.

I personally just play with my Quest and Keyboard, No Touchbinder, No Voice attack.

If i were you?

 

Buy the FA-18,
Learn how to add bombs (mk82)
Learn to takeoff (with 'Windows + Home' button at first to get you up in the air)
Learn to drop bombs
Go online to a 4YA training server, and bomb enemies using the F10 Map

Learn to use RWR
Learn HARMS (AGM 88c I think)
Go online to a 4Ya training server, take out ground radar from afar

Learn to use MAV's (Mav's AMG65 with the F at the end are easiest)
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and bomb local SAMS (Youll learn basic evasion tactics)

Learn to use JSOWs (AGM 154C)

Go online to a 4Ya training server, and bomb Base Hawks (long range SAM)
Learn to use AGM 62's
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and bomb ships.

Learn to use AMRAAM's
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and shoot small aircraft from far away

Learn Aim 9's
Go online to a 4Ya training server, and shoot the aircraft from upclose

Learn Guns

Go online to a 4Ya training server, and shoot down the guns
Then learn the SA page,
Then learn LGB's

Then Learn to refuel in the air..

Then learn how to properly land (chances are youll not experience this if you play online- Youll get shot down alot)

Then go back and learn how to start the aircraft.
Learn how to tell communicate.
Then learn how to land on the carrier.
Then decide what was the most fun and do it online in a none training server (Growling Sidewinder) where there is no F10 Map, and its just you and the game.
Then learn the Mission Editor and Build your own missions (because we love a contribution back to the community to make the modules more playable)

Is that anyhelp?
Its a checklist to print and tick?

 

Effectively I need to print that, and tick one after one things of that list

But I'm not sure to understand how you can go with Quest and keyboard, by definition ypu can view it when you gave the google in you ?

 

33 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

Open beta 2.7 planned for the end of the month, but if we need more time we will let you all know. 

 

thanks

 

I think it's a good news, just for volumetrics clouds implements ! Thanks for your work

 

17 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

This IS great news.
Good work Eagle Dynamics.

Just a query- will there be any notifications on the modules purchase page or even in the forums (a new VR touch control page in the forum, with a list thats updatable?) that will allow us to know which modules will have some sort of 'touch control support' before purchase..
The last few months have been phenomenal for VR as alot of people got a headset for christmas.

 

In the example of @William i can see more people are getting into the DCS free SU25 with their new VR headset, thinking that all modules are TControl compatible only to find out they arent-

Even if it says something along the line of,
'Stick and throttle support 'in beta for touch controls' -bugs might be expected'

Im aware nothing is perfect in the computer world, but id be interested in buying a couple of modules P47, Spitfire, F5 included as well as a few 3rd party modules if they're coming with that support, and it would be fantastic if there was a notification for us before we purchase or wait for the 'free to play' events.
 

It would stop me from asking the question (will they be touch control compatible?) every few months..
I know the A10c is currently bugged (stick pulls back the second you grab it), as well as the F15 (joystick grips too high), and the CEagle2 (which is 3rd party but doesnt work too well).
Im sure the A10c will be on the update as thats a big one.
Ive asked on the community podcast page, so if its going to be answered in the podcast, ill just wait for that.

 

While we have the superb FA18, i cant ask for more, but the hope of an actual 'VTOL VR' with Razbams awesome harrier is always something a man can dream of.

 

 

Good idea, but for more efficiency, add this "detail" in the presentation tet on the purchase page, it seems logical.

 

15 minutes ago, Topo said:

 

mmmhh....

I use DCS exclusively in VR, with a Rift S.

Not possible to return on a flat screen with TrackIR; simply not possible for me.

I fly now mostly with the Viper and the Hornet; i try to mimic the real hotas functions with my system (a warthog stick and an X-52Pro throttle, with Saitek pedals), and use the mouse to manipulate the cockpit knobs and buttons, waiting for my PointCTRL.

I think i'll try VRTC, but how you can simulate all the hotas functions? (TMS, DMS, TRIM and so on...)

 

Thanks, and sorry for my english...

 

The PointCTRL hardware is a graet piece of 3D printing and sensor, but for me to much. More cables, more complexity that seems more troubles. And I want to extract as much as possible to my Quest II and Touch Controller before looking at this sort of stuff. You will go read the post about the TouchBinder it can make a good job, but now I think the VoiceAttack is more real feeling.

 

18 minutes ago, DutchCoolHand said:

And I feel you are waiving your arms in air as you have no feedback

 

Yes ! And When you crash ... you die. No, anybody here want to be so realistic ? But maybe if you take some fan of your PC ... They can do the tricks

[StevanJ]

24 minutes ago, Topo said:

 

mmmhh....

I use DCS exclusively in VR, with a Rift S.

Not possible to return on a flat screen with TrackIR; simply not possible for me.

I fly now mostly with the Viper and the Hornet; i try to mimic the real hotas functions with my system (a warthog stick and an X-52Pro throttle, with Saitek pedals), and use the mouse to manipulate the cockpit knobs and buttons, waiting for my PointCTRL.

I think i'll try VRTC, but how you can simulate all the hotas functions? (TMS, DMS, TRIM and so on...)

 

Thanks, and sorry for my english...

Agree with you there, VR is the future.
You either download touch binder and map all the controls, Or you use a keyboard.

A mouse isnt exactly realistic, but i understand why you use it- Ive been there..
You dont need to apologise.
 

[StevanJ]

25 minutes ago, DutchCoolHand said:

And I feel you are waiving your arms in air as you have no feedback

This is what im talking about, you obviously havent played with Touch Controls, otherwise you wouldnt say that.
Yeah, I get why youre saying it, but there is feedback, you get a sense of where you are due to small things.
If youre in the F-18, your arm rests on your leg, so you get 'some' feedback against that.
The F-16, i have arm-rests on my chair, so i know when im sat in that i get feedback from the rest too.
If i use my HOTAS, my arms are in the air because im reaching for the HOTAS on my desk.
Its not exactly realistic playing in an office chair i know. But then this is the discussion about where we draw the line in the sand.
And thats why ill always ask that people go try and do something complicated using VRTC before they highlight issues that dont really exist.
I welcome your comment though..
 

[DutchCoolHand]

15 minutes ago, William said:

Yes ! And When you crash ... you die. No, anybody here want to be so realistic ? But maybe if you take some fan of your PC ... They can do the tricks

Having my hand on the stick provides feedback on how much input I give. This is not asking to be too realistic. When I use VTOLVR and use the controllers I still have some feedback.

[DutchCoolHand]

4 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

This is what im talking about, you obviously havent played with Touch Controls, otherwise you wouldnt say that.
Yeah, I get why youre saying it, but there is feedback, you get a sense of where you are due to small things.
If youre in the F-18, your arm rests on your leg, so you get 'some' feedback against that.
The F-16, i have arm-rests on my chair, so i know when im sat in that i get feedback from the rest too.
If i use my HOTAS, my arms are in the air because im reaching for the HOTAS on my desk.
Its not exactly realistic playing in an office chair i know. But then this is the discussion about where we draw the line in the sand.
And thats why ill always ask that people go try and do something complicated using VRTC before they highlight issues that dont really exist.
I welcome your comment though..
 

Hotas on your desk???? that is not a honest comparison. I have had my hotas setup at the right position and height since I started flying in VR. I just got the WheelStand Pro to replace my 1 year old Foxx clamps. My arms and hands are where they would be in a real plane. I have had it happen where I want to lean my elbow on the canopy rail to have my elbow fall down as it is not there off course. I would love to see a video of you using it. How do you do the small inputs when you do Air to Air refueling for example.

[StevanJ]

14 minutes ago, William said:

But I'm not sure to understand how you can go with Quest and keyboard, by definition ypu can view it when you gave the google in you ?

So- everything in the FA18 can be controlled with one hand, while you fly with the other.
So the space is launch, Right Alt + space is weapon release for bombs/weapons, comma- full stop- and forward slash is left, down and right with semicolon being up.
With Right alt down, i can control which screen (sensor) to operate using comma, forward slash, or semicolon. Left/ Right MFD, Up= Hud etc
Once ive warmed up the TGP with the switch on my right hand, I can then use my left hand to control the right Screens (MFD) FLIR and then assign a target moving the TGP's sights the cursors just mentioned, and then using Right ALT and forward slash to (in basic term) select a target spot- to where my JSOWS will end up, and then press enter to confirm.
Then all i have to do, is Right Alt and Space to launch a JSOW from 30 miles out 30,000ft in the air..

You can fire at, and launch 8 JSOWS, in about 40 seconds using your left hand.
Then usually i turn, dive, and pull out in a hope that the SAMs that have just fired lose their momentum (energy).

This routine is the same, with most of the weapons on the FA18.

All you need to do is learn the different weapons.

 

[Fri13]

On 2/3/2021 at 10:51 AM, TobesyFlyer said:

Will VR ever get improved in terms of controller interactivity and remove the need to use a real Hotas? If so, I believe that it would be very immersive.

 

The VR controllers are never as real as HOTAS is. 

 

1) You do not have the functions the real HOTAS has, that you can bind to Joystick and Throttle.

2) You never have the physical feedback of the stick and throttle with VR controllers. You need to float your hands in the air, not rested on the stick and throttle.

3) You are required to use keyboard, voice command software for the real HOTAS functions and that is unrealistic, you are literally using same wrong controllers for every aircraft there is.

 

What you benefit from, is physical controllers for stick and throttle/collective. You want to have enough buttons, hats and axis in both of them so you can bind only the real functions to them (nothing else). And then in VR, you really benefit from a proper hand tracking (still lacking in DCS, but there are great things out there to come near it) so you need to move hand next to the cockpit buttons, switches etc to operate them (you don't use HOTAS for landing gear, for UFC, for MFCD's etc). 

 

The CtrlPoint that is sold here is great replacement for mouse, but AFAIK it doesn't have a depth axis, so you don't need to put your hand close to the controls, but you do so naturally, but still you have a cross on screen. Until example Eagle Dynamics implements the Oculus Quest hand detection API (they already have touch controllers) then somekind extra controller is required. 

 

With real HOTAS you don't need to be creative to make realistic bindings, depending your choice of joystick and throttle naturally. So if you have a 2 button joystick, you can't do as much as with joystick full of those. 

Here is my examples:

 

 

 

Because you have N+1 amount of buttons, hats and switches, it doesn't mean you need to put everything there. 

To go for a realistic behavior, you don't need to own all the grips there are for various bases either. Sure that is the closest you can get, but it is not required.

 

All that you are required is to jump in the cockpit, look at the real stick and throttle, then open options and open the corresponding category and bind the functions that really are only in them and closest possible manner. Like example the F/A-18C Hornet and AV-8B N/A Harrier sticks are same, but in the Harrier the SCS and Trim has swapped their places. The trim is more important (under thumb) than the Sensor Select Switch (right side of the stick). While in the Hornet the Sensor Control Switch is more important than Trim hat.

 

You simply copy the real functions and layout to your joystick and throttle and you leave everything else out of them. So no gear levers, no OSB, no LTD/R, no Brakes, no Bypass etc to them. If throttle and stick doesn't have them, then they don't go to HOTAS. 

Everything else in the cockpit, you do by your hands. You move your hands around. And you will learn example in Hornet that you can't reach a LTD/R switch with your left hand on right side panel, but you need to use right hand to operate it.

 

What comes to use just the touch controllers or other VR controllers to use the virtual stick and throttle in the cockpit, it works for emergency situation like you just need to test something for a minute or two. but to fly for hours with those, it doesn't work at all so well as with physical stick between your legs (or side of your leg as with F-16) and throttle at the side to rest your hands on them and having all the proper functions under your fingertips. As those sticks are far more realistic than having this in your hands to fly the aircraft:

 

 

You just eventually have one and only one controller and functionality in your posession, instead different functions and different layouts.

Instead example VKB has gone for a modularity in their sticks, just waiting to see that they do higher level modularity to their top sticks.

 

 

As example in it you can swap two hats between 8-way hat + push or 2-axis + push mini-stick. Someone likely comes around and allows to be even more modular and switch every single of those six positions (3x2 rows) to be either button, hat or mini-stick.

On that moment one could make the wanted layout, but not be so easily swapping them between flight as changing whole grip.

 

Edit: of course F-16 and such benefits from the sidemounted stick with short throw, why you can have a quick clam system that allows you to move stick from between legs to side in 15 seconds and shorten it in few seconds by removing possible extension. So you don't need to own multiple bases and grips to do that.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Fri13

[Fri13]

10 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

So- everything in the FA18 can be controlled with one hand, while you fly with the other.
So the space is launch, Right Alt + space is weapon release for bombs/weapons, comma- full stop- and forward slash is left, down and right with semicolon being up.
With Right alt down, i can control which screen (sensor) to operate using comma, forward slash, or semicolon. Left/ Right MFD, Up= Hud etc
Once ive warmed up the TGP with the switch on my right hand, I can then use my left hand to control the right Screens (MFD) FLIR and then assign a target moving the TGP's sights the cursors just mentioned, and then using Right ALT and forward slash to (in basic term) select a target spot- to where my JSOWS will end up, and then press enter to confirm.
Then all i have to do, is Right Alt and Space to launch a JSOW from 30 miles out 30,000ft in the air..

You can fire at, and launch 8 JSOWS, in about 40 seconds using your left hand.
Then usually i turn, dive, and pull out in a hope that the SAMs that have just fired lose their momentum (energy).

This routine is the same, with most of the weapons on the FA18.

All you need to do is learn the different weapons.

 

And how is that "better" or "realistic" or anyways "different" from this:

 

Quote

Like you, id say 'how is that realistic'? To which he's argue that i was using the same flight controls that i used for all my modules, and argued back, how is THAT realistic..
He was right, I had a button for 'gear' instead of a lever, a throttle for a collective, and my 'joystick map' was the same for every aircraft despite it being not like the aircraft at all.
He challenged me- 'Try it for two weeks, and tell me it doesnt feel better- more natural'..

 

So how it is more natural to have a keyboard under your left hand? How it is not "ho is THAT realistic"? How is it not about flying "the same for every aircraft despite it being not like the aircraft at all"?

 

What you only did was to exchange a more realistic device to a unrealistic device, where you need to use a both hands to do things in Hornet, you use now just one hand - on a keyboard...

 

From this:

 

To this (but for F/A-18C):

 

 

 

How does it feel "more natural"?