Mi-8 Realistic Cold Start Procedure

[Rudel_chw]

On 4/8/2021 at 3:14 PM, Rudel_chw said:

...  I had left the Mi-8 aside while I waited for my new Virpil rudder pedals to arrive, but it seems that they are still on backorder ...

 

 

Hello all,

 

I'm so happy .. today arrived my new VirPil Rudder Pedals, and they are a real treat 

 

 

I'm still getting used to them, and will probably purchase a wooden surface to attach them to.

Anyway, I'm back on the Mi-8 and hope to revamp my procedures in the next few days

Best regards,

 

Eduardo

[Hiob]

Congratulation!

Rudder pedals are really a big bonus for helicopter flying! Have fun!

[Rudel_chw]

On 4/6/2021 at 6:31 AM, Hiob said:

Hi Rudel,

any Updates on your Checklist? Is the Download in the first post linked to the most recent version?

 

Hello,

 

Sorry for the long delay, I've just today updated the first post with my most recent version of this document.

 

I've also edited a training mission for the Cold Start, based on this document. The mission includes two variants: a shorter one where most of the Checks & Tests steps are ommited; and a longer variant that includes them but takes a lot longer to perform. You can try it from here:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3317317/

 

This is a video of the short version:

 

 

 

And this one is a video of the longer variant:

 

 

When doing the final test of the longer variant I detected a bug on my mission, you can see it at minute 58:58 ... for some reason, the Altitude Channel on the Autopilot, refuses to turn ON. The Yaw and Pitch&Roll channels work fine, but the Altitude does not

 

I didn't catch it during testing, because due to the length of the mission I used a Hot Start Mi-8 to skip directly to the avionics setup while I was building the mission. So, the Autopilot works perfectly on a Hot Start Mi-8, but it doe not if I start the Helo following my procedure.

 

Please, please, if anyone catches what I'm doing wrong during the Cold Start, let me know and then I will fix the Mission (and the Procedure). Best regards to all of you 

 

 

Eduardo

 

[sLYFa]

Are you sure it doesnt turn on? The light for the altitude channel is very dim, barely visible.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, sLYFa said:

Are you sure it doesnt turn on? The light for the altitude channel is very dim, barely visible.

 

Yes, pretty sure, I rotate the light-button and it clearly does not turn on. While, if I use an already running Mi-8, I can perform the test easily and the light turn on, dimly but clearly visible.  

 

Will make a (short) video, to show and compare with the above ones.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Rudel_chw

[randomTOTEN]

I suspect the altitude hold doesn't function when the helicopter is on the ground, as I know that light illuminates in flight. I don't know if the Mi-8 has WOW switches or if some other logic is blocking the engagement.

 

I noticed there was no timing for the engine starts (starting the stopwatch), is that something Hip operators don't do (unlike pretty much every other aircraft) or was that not included for another reason?

 

You can set the rotor pitch to 3° for the governor test.. but you have to trim the cyclic and pedals to keep from tipping over. Not sure if that's helpful for the mission.

A prompt would be nice to close the ATC menu when I call for startup.

 

They pull the ground power before disabling the switches on the electrical panel?

 

Enough of criticisms, Rudel this is an absolutely amazing mission you've made, and is of such incredible quality that I cannot comprehend it. The use of the pop-up graphics for systems overview is something I didn't even know was possible (I think it was released as an update this year?) and just.....wow man.

 

Thank you for showing me how the clock works... really works.

 

Nice job!

[sLYFa]

The altitude channels absolutely works on the ground. There is a WoW switch but its only to activate the flight data recorder. Btw I dont know why you are turning it. You need to use the test switch below to test the altitude channel. 

As for engine startup, you check for:

-at least 1bar oil pressure at 45%

-starter disconnect at 65%

-max TIT 780° (740° at 0° OAT) 

-max sartup time 60s

-2bar oil pressure at idle

[Rudel_chw]

 

 

16 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

... Will make a (short) video, to show and compare with the above ones.

 

Hi,

 

Here is a video taken on the same conditions as my prior one, but this time the helo was set as Hot Started and the missions goes straigth to the AP test part:

 

 

Here you can see that even if the Altitude light is dimmer than the ones for the other AP channels, it is clearly working and the check can be perfomed according to procedure.

So, I'm pretty sure that my Cold Start Procedure is missing an item somewhere, that causes the Altitude channel being somehow disabled ... but I'v checked it a lot and for the life of me can't find what it might be 

 

11 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

I suspect the altitude hold doesn't function when the helicopter is on the ground, as I know that light illuminates in flight. I don't know if the Mi-8 has WOW switches or if some other logic is blocking the engagement.

 

Not so, it does work, as demonstrated on the video above.

 

11 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

I noticed there was no timing for the engine starts (starting the stopwatch), is that something Hip operators don't do (unlike pretty much every other aircraft) or was that not included for another reason?

 

I didn't include the stopwatch use, in order to not complicate the APU & engine start sections of the mission.

 

11 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

You can set the rotor pitch to 3° for the governor test.. but you have to trim the cyclic and pedals to keep from tipping over. Not sure if that's helpful for the mission.

 

Yes, you are fully right, if I push the cyclic back and a bit to the right and then trim, I can use a 3º pitch ... the problem is that I would be adding steps that on the Real Manual are not there. In the end, I wen't for the lesser evil and used 2º instead of 3º.

 

11 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

A prompt would be nice to close the ATC menu when I call for startup.

 

The step text does mention to use F12, but as I can't associate a trigger to it (unlike for example, the detection of the PTT press), adding a prompt for that specific item is not feasible.

 

11 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

They pull the ground power before disabling the switches on the electrical panel?

 

Just checked the manual of the real aircraft, seems that I got it wrong and the switches are first disconnected and only then the crew unplugs the ground cables  .. I will have to update that part of the mission & procedure.

 

11 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

Enough of criticisms, Rudel this is an absolutely amazing mission you've made, and is of such incredible quality that I cannot comprehend it.

 

Thanks a lot for your kind words, I tried to make it as complete as I could, and detect as much user interaction as possible, to minimize the use of the dreadful "press spacebar"  

 

11 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

The use of the pop-up graphics for systems overview is something I didn't even know was possible (I think it was released as an update this year?

 

Yes, that's a new function of the Mission Editor and this is the first mission where i have used this facility .. I asked @AlphaOneSix his permission to use his diagrams, as I find they clarify so much some of the systems. Wish ED now added the posibility to play short videos, in addition to displaying pictures.

 

6 hours ago, sLYFa said:

Btw I dont know why you are turning it. You need to use the test switch below to test the altitude channel. 

 

On my video above is my take on how to do the AP check, do I got it right?

 

6 hours ago, sLYFa said:

As for engine startup, you check for:

-at least 1bar oil pressure at 45%

-starter disconnect at 65%

-max TIT 780° (740° at 0° OAT) 

-max sartup time 60s

-2bar oil pressure at idle

 

Thanks a lot for the information, will surely use it when I update the Procedure and/or mission 

Best regards,

 

Eduardo

 

[randomTOTEN]

9 hours ago, sLYFa said:

There is a WoW switch but its only to activate the flight data recorder.

Oh yeah... that one. Oops, I forgot about it.

9 hours ago, sLYFa said:

The altitude channels absolutely works on the ground.

Yeah you're right. I've never used it on the ground until now.

 

@Rudel_chw I think the problem might be related to some script in your mission. I just tried a cold start, using (basically) the identical procedure, and the channel engages on the ground. I noticed some (scripting?) in your mission, in that I am forced to change seats on some triggers, and some systems/switches are not in the normal cold start position. The largest example I can think of is you somehow start the mission with the parking brake off, which is not (afaik) normal for a Hip cold start. I think one of the seat change scripts also reset a switch on the engine start panel.

 

Does your Mi-17 manual make no mention of the power limiter check when advancing the engines to normal power? It's amazing, that mission took me 1h20m and there's still so much to be done in the aircraft...

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

 

@Rudel_chw I think the problem might be related to some script in your mission. I just tried a cold start, using (basically) the identical procedure, and the channel engages on the ground. I noticed some (scripting?)

 

Hi. On my mission I use the Random Air Traffic script of the Moose framework, to provide background air traffic .. it should not interfere in any way with the player's aircraft, but will remove it and test the mission without any scripting.

 

1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

I noticed some (scripting?) in your mission, in that I am forced to change seats on some triggers

 

Yes, some triggers change your seat to make sure that the highlights on some instruments can be seen properly ... for example if I highlight the AP window on the Engineer's console, and you are on the pilot Seat, then from your point of view the highlight would look displaced.  You can still change seat afterwards if you want to.

 

1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

...  and some systems/switches are not in the normal cold start position. The largest example I can think of is you somehow start the mission with the parking brake off, which is not (afaik) normal for a Hip cold start. I think one of the seat change scripts also reset a switch on the engine start panel.

 

Yes, that is intended, as the DCS normal cold start position of some switches is not like the one on the Mi-17 Manual. I set the parking brake off on mission start, so that you can later perform the Step 10: "Enable Parking Brake"

 

Also, after starting the first engine, I reset the ENGINE START switch, because I wanted the engine start sequence to be identical for both engines.

 

1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

 

Does your Mi-17 manual make no mention of the power limiter check when advancing the engines to normal power? 

 

No, I used mostly the TM 1-1520-Mi-17-10 Operator's Manual, and it mentions the power limiter feature of the engine governor, but does not shown a check procedure for it during the Cold Start.

 

Thanks a lot for your feedback, I couldn't help but love the extent to which ED simulated the aircraft system's .. pity that ED dissolved Belsimtek, they did amazing work with the UH-1, Mi-8, Mig-15 and Sabre. I'd kill for a Su-15 done by that team 

 

Best regards,

 

Eduardo

[sLYFa]

The power limiter is not checked during normal startup, only the FT overspeed sensors. 

There is test button for the power limiter on the rear left overhead panel, I dont know if it works though

[randomTOTEN]

I mean the switches below the Autopilot panel, on the center pedestal. Perhaps governors is a better word for them. The test is described in the DCS manual.

[Rudel_chw]

3 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

The power limiter is not checked during normal startup, only the FT overspeed sensors. 

There is test button for the power limiter on the rear left overhead panel, I dont know if it works though

 

 you really know the Mi-8 in-depth . I learned a lot about the Mi-8 while editing this mission and the procedure document, in anticipation of the release of the Mi-24. I would have continued with other items, like the Navigation and Weapons, but the Hind was released before I expected, so I will leave the Hip aside, to begin studying the Hind for a while.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Eduardo

[randomTOTEN]

9 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

I dont know if it works though

It does, but I find I have to be in cruise flight (or otherwise applying substantial power to the engines) to see the lights come on.

[Rudel_chw]

18 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

I mean the switches below the Autopilot panel, on the center pedestal. Perhaps governors is a better word for them. The test is described in the DCS manual.

 

I found it, their check is not part of the Cold Start sequence that I used as reference, so I did not include it on my Mission.

[AlphaOneSix]

There is an N1 test switch on the governor panel in addition to the N2 (FT) test switches. The temperature limiter switches are on the top left overhead panel. All they are doing is telling your temperature limiter to limit at 860-ish instead of 990. So you still have to get the PTIT (EGT) to 860 or so to test it. Easiest way is to just make the aircraft really heavy, then you can test it on the ground. Or do one engine at a time by dropping the ECL of the engine not being tested. Both of those are tests that we do at the 50-hour maintenance interval during the post-inspection check flight, or after the replacement of an engine or other component that's part of that system. Certainly not something we'd do during a normal flight. Also, we only check the FT governors every 25 hours. We do a PAT (partial acceleration test) before the first flight of each day, however.

[Alpenwolf]

On 2/8/2021 at 12:17 AM, Rudel_chw said:

 

 

 

Thanks a lot for all the help, I will correct my Procedure to take into account your information. Most likely, I will ignore the warm-up times if they don't cause trouble in DCS, in order to have a playable Procedure, tough I will probably mention the omission of these warm-up times on the appropiate places.

 

Greetings,

 

Eduardo

 

edit: interesting video

 

 

 

I was about to start a thread to post this very video, but I thought I might look for it here. Surely someone will have had posted and there you are

 

I've been flying the Hip since day one, read the manual twice and still go back to it once in a while to check out a few things. Can we just all agree that the start up procedure is this video is rubbish? That is if we assume the one we have in DCS is the proper one? Or can one just start up this helicopter (or any helicopter/airplane) differently while following the SOP's regarding essential things only? As to this video, I'm mainly referring to the standby generator and the equipment test switches he turned on and off so often. But also the fuel pumps when he switched them all on, then switched off the right and left pumps off while keeping the feed pump on. I know he wasn't using external power for the start up procedure, hence switching on the feed pump switch only, but only after switching on all three. Huh?! Also, he seemed to be in a hurry and didn't allow the engines to warm up well.

[AlphaOneSix]

9 hours ago, Alpenwolf said:

 

I was about to start a thread to post this very video, but I thought I might look for it here. Surely someone will have had posted and there you are

 

I've been flying the Hip since day one, read the manual twice and still go back to it once in a while to check out a few things. Can we just all agree that the start up procedure is this video is rubbish? That is if we assume the one we have in DCS is the proper one? Or can one just start up this helicopter (or any helicopter/airplane) differently while following the SOP's regarding essential things only? As to this video, I'm mainly referring to the standby generator and the equipment test switches he turned on and off so often. But also the fuel pumps when he switched them all on, then switched off the right and left pumps off while keeping the feed pump on. I know he wasn't using external power for the start up procedure, hence switching on the feed pump switch only, but only after switching on all three. Huh?! Also, he seemed to be in a hurry and didn't allow the engines to warm up well.

 

I wouldn't say it was rubbish at all. Granted, once we turn on the fuel pumps we leave them all on, but if he is concerned about battery usage (maybe a local SOP?) he might just turn the saddle tank pumps on to see that they work, then turn them back off until after APU start. The starter/generator and equipment test switches are being used properly, they should be turned off during engine start. The engines warmed up just fine? They never left idle in the video so not sure exactly what you're referring to here.

[Alpenwolf]

10 hours ago, AlphaOneSix said:

 

I wouldn't say it was rubbish at all. Granted, once we turn on the fuel pumps we leave them all on, but if he is concerned about battery usage (maybe a local SOP?) he might just turn the saddle tank pumps on to see that they work, then turn them back off until after APU start. The starter/generator and equipment test switches are being used properly, they should be turned off during engine start. The engines warmed up just fine? They never left idle in the video so not sure exactly what you're referring to here.

 

"Local SOP" is what I also thought about. Could be the case. Besides, there are different Mi-8 variants, so, maybe that causes discrepancies among all the different start up procedures.

 

The engines' warm ups seem fine. Just looked it up again.