not planned Easy mode AAR

[BMGZ06]

7 minutes ago, SilverHawk94 said:

 

I fly the F-18 and f-14 the most and stop making it seems that I bounce from plane to plane every 5 mins. Geesh its just a game. Relax some of us have a life beside playing DCS 24/7

I was saying it would be a nice feature to have.  If not then I will just check "unlimited fuel" or land at an allies base and refuel. Btw, Ive done plenty of AAR practice even online. I have my settings set just right.  It's mental with AAR and I just have to keep trying if that what I choose to do.  Happy Flying   

 

Curious to know what stick you are using.

[Tippis]

21 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

In the last few decades of my service, which was only 3 years ago, the school of hard knocks exist and is very much used.

And, as mentioned, that's not something I'm denying — I'm simply pointing out that it's antiquated, and definitely not applicable to what DCS (or indeed any entertainment product) is supposed to provide.

 

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And you didn't answer my question.

Neither ad hominem nor appeal to authority are actual arguments. If you're that desperate to drag the thread off on a fallacious tangent, then it's probably time you stepped away from the topic because you long since ceased to have anything of value to add to the discussion.

 

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I mean, maybe you or your squad like to be spoon fed everything because it makes you feel better, but there are those of us that don't

That's nice, dear. What you you need to feel good doesn't really matter, now does it? It certainly doesn't address any of the myriad of reasons why this feature would be beneficial to the game, or demonstrates any downsides that need to be considered. You don't so you won't so no-one really cares since it doesn't matter to you in any way.

 

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The guys that want easy AAR should use the unlimited fuel option if it's too hard

It has been fully explained why this is a very silly and counterproductive non-solution. It addresses none of the issues and only ever create tons more for no good reason. It is one of the most mind-bogglingly misconstrued ideas offered ever as far as this topic goes since it suggests that when people want to see more complexity, difficulty, and realism, they should actually be using an option that removes all of that and forces everyone involved to live by those vastly watered-down rules. The exact opposite of what they're asking for.

 

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About the quote block, I didn't miss it! We all know who is replying to who here so there was no need for the italicized words

In that case, your question makes no sense. I wrote a response to someone else's post; you reacted as if I was saying things about you. And you're now illustrating perfectly why there is a need for semantic markers in text: to emphasise the difference between him and you.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tippis

[Jackjack171]

5 minutes ago, SilverHawk94 said:

 

I fly the F-18 and f-14 the most and stop making it seems that I bounce from plane to plane every 5 mins. Geesh its just a game. Relax some of us have a life beside playing DCS 24/7

I was saying it would be a nice feature to have.  If not then I will just check "unlimited fuel" or land at an allies base and refuel. Btw, Ive done plenty of AAR practice even online.

I have my settings set just right.  It's mental with AAR.  Happy Flying   

Respect! It's all good. This is just friendly convo! We all have lives outside of DCS (I hope) but nevertheless, there's nothing wrong with a little passion and banter among fellow simmers. I love this stuff! 

[Fri13]

9 minutes ago, SilverHawk94 said:

 

I fly the F-18 and f-14 the most and stop making it seems that I bounce from plane to plane every 5 mins. Geesh its just a game.

 

Discussion was about real life flying, not about game. So get your accusations right.

 

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Relax some of us have a life beside playing DCS 24/7

 

So you claim I don't have? Maybe you can first separate forum activity from playing, as you can write where ever you want with phone, while not play DCS same way.

For your information, I am not at home but at the bus stop waiting a bus to arrive so I can drive to home.

So relax, we all have a life.

 

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I was saying it would be a nice feature to have.  If not then I will just check "unlimited fuel" or land at an allies base and refuel.

 

Still, unlimited fuel is not a same thing at all. And there is a reason a air refueling exist, as you example can not take-off vertically with harrier and complete a mission as you are required to perform in-flight refueling for longer distances as your weight is severely limited to do so.

 

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Btw, Ive done plenty of AAR practice even online. I have my settings set just right.  It's mental with AAR and I just have to keep trying if that what I choose to do.  Happy Flying   

 

Again, not everyone can do it. Hence the wish for an assisted air refueling so they could. It is not a mental thing that they do not want to, but that they can't do it well, no matter how much time they put to it. They need assistance! 

 

[Jackjack171]

Just now, Tippis said:

And, as mentioned, that's not something I'm denying — I'm simply pointing out that it's antiquated, and definitely not applicable to what DCS (or indeed any entertainment product) is supposed to provide.

 

Neither ad hominem nor appeal to authority are actual arguments. If you're that desperate to drag the thread off on a fallacious tangent, then it's probably time you stepped away from the topic because you long since ceased to have anything of value to add to the discussion.

 

That's nice, dear. What you you need to feel good doesn't really matter, now does it? It certainly doesn't address any of the myriad of reasons why this feature would be beneficial to the game or demonstrate any downsides that need to be considered.

 

It has been fully explained why this is a very silly and counterproductive non-solution. It addresses none of the issues and only ever create tons more for no good reason. It is one of the most mind-bogglingly misconstrued ideas offered ever as far as this topic goes since it suggests that when people want to see more complexity, difficulty, and realism, they should actually be using an option that removes all of that and forces everyone involved to live by those vastly watered-down rules. The exact opposite of what they're asking for.

 

In that case, your question makes no sense. I wrote a response to someone else's post; you reacted as if I was saying things about you. And you're now illustrating perfectly why there is a need for semantic markers in text: to emphasise the difference between him and you.

 

I'm not stepping away from anything bro. You shouldn't try and tell other what to step away from just because you don't like it. You can just not like what I have to say but that's not going to change anything. You didn't see me tell you to not post to the conversation did you? You do not own the forums brother! Your opinion is just that, yours! (took a page out of your book)The hand holding unlimited fuel option is there as you mentioned. All of a sudden it's not enough! Funny! We've been down this road before. This silly request has been asked ad nauseum! And still no easy AAR! But I'm here for it! 

[Fri13]

Point, the forum quote system goes wonky on smartphone and quotes different blocks at different people. It even combines posts and delete post replies when combining so my previous posts has gone to wrong people. Sorry for that.

[Jackjack171]

Just now, Fri13 said:

Point, the forum quote system goes wonky on smartphone and quotes different blocks at different people. It even combines posts and delete post replies when combining so my previous posts has gone to wrong people. Sorry for that.

It's all good brother!

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And really in today’s world it’s hard to justify the cost for something that’s going to be instantly outdone by the community. There’s another flight sim out there which could hardly justify creating its own manual because the community could be counted on to just do it better and faster. 

I fly that other sim. Starting out with it was awful. The selection of community tutorials is horrible, they're sorely lacking in information and completely fail at explaining which plane is good at what. The only interactive training was copypasted to hell and back, and the only thing given by the devs are raw, out of context plane specs. If I didn't come in with extensive flying experience all the way back from FreeFalcon and FlightGear, and a good knowledge of history, I would've given up on it, as I did on one of the previous installments. I would've paid extra for actual, properly written tutorials of a sort DCS has, because everything available on YouTube is just that bad of an experience, and community-created documents are just pure crap. Unfortunately, the devs are just too lazy to address that issue (and many others), it seems.

 

Relying on 3rd party resources is bad. DCS almost does it right, but training missions aren't available for every aspect, AAR being one of them. It's excusable in early access, but something like A-10 should have a complete suite, which is almost does - the only things missing from there are the latest additions and AAR. Some of the other modules are more lacking, though in general, training missions are a DCS strong point. I wouldn't recommend people go into that other WWII sim without first flying one of DCS WWII modules to learn what to expect from those birds.

 

Also, control over tutorial resources is important. What do you do if Google decides to scrub your favorite tutorial provider over taking the wrong side on some political issue, or picking the wrong BGM for one video too many (as it has done in the past)? DCS training missions are in DCS, they're approved by the module devs, and thus we can reasonably expect them to be correct, up to date and bugless. If they're not, we've got the right to demand fixes, because we paid money for them. Resources provided for free by the community are subject to removal at the creator's whim, and the creators have no obligation to maintain them.

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

DCS almost does it right, but training missions aren't available for every aspect, AAR being one of them.

See again, you’re just being led way off course. There’s nothing a DCS style training mission can do for you short of showing you which buttons to press. And a voice-over saying “now just hold steady and fly close formation with the tanker”

There isn’t any substitute for practice. And the sim does include practice missions for AAR. But it’s up to you to put the hours in. That’s the only way. Take if from somebody who knows how rather than reading endless text walls from those who can’t or won’t. If they put all this time into practice rather than excuses they’d all be experts by now. 
 

Something DCS could do is have scenarios where you fly as a wingman instead of the lead. Every DCS mission has you as the leader. So you never get any formation flying experience. Perhaps when this Dynamic Campaign comes along that will be a role in it. Flying formation is the building block of AAR.

[Exorcet]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

See again, you’re just being led way off course. There’s nothing a DCS style training mission can do for you short of showing you which buttons to press. And a voice-over saying “now just hold steady and fly close formation with the tanker”

In addition it can tell you that you are too fast/slow/high/low for your given distance from the tanker in real time, point out the tanker lights that the player might not know exist or know how to read, or other visual references. As the mission would likely apply to a given airframe in known conditions advice for things like throttle settings can be passed on to the player. A large part of training is passing on information, which is absolutely something a DCS training mission can do.

[Lurker]

There is only one possible and logical argument for why an easy mode Aerial Refueling should not be in the game. And yes it is a game first and foremost, and a sim second. And the only logical argument is that it is too costly, in time, or money, or both, from a development perspective.

Everything else is elitist BS. Sorry to say it, but that's the way it is.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Lurker

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

In addition it can tell you that you are too fast/slow/high/low for your given distance from the tanker in real time, point out the tanker lights that the player might not know exist or know how to read, or other visual references. As the mission would likely apply to a given airframe in known conditions advice for things like throttle settings can be passed on to the player. A large part of training is passing on information, which is absolutely something a DCS training mission can do.

You can see with your own eyes if you’re fast slow high low whatever. You don’t need any extra info to tell you that. The visual cues are really simple information you can get from videos. That’s not the hard part. 
 

And there is no “throttle setting” for AAR. See now I can tell you haven’t done this 

1 minute ago, Lurker said:

There is only one possible and logical argument for why an easy mode Aerial Refueling should not be in the game. And yes it is a game first and foremost, and a sim second. And the only logical argument is that it is too costly, in time, or money, or both, from a development perspective.

This. IMO there are more important things ED can work on. 

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Jackjack171 said:

It's all good brother!

 

It is not. The new forum system does odd things that mix posts and quotes and delete even your text when it automatically combines your replies. Had it happen twice already where suddenly post just didn't have the written text but just the quotes, and it shows even other people posts with wrong quotes that doesn't make sense, and then when you post reply it mix them odd manners. Something to do with the automatic notifications and refreshment system, as usually posts orders get wonky before you refresh the page. 

These cause just more trouble than should in discussions. 

 

[Exorcet]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can see with your own eyes if you’re fast slow high low whatever. You don’t need any extra info to tell you that. The visual cues are really simple information you can get from videos. That’s not the hard part. 
 

And there is no “throttle setting” for AAR. See now I can tell you haven’t done this 

This. IMO there are more important things ED can work on. 

You do need additional information because tanker approach speed isn't something people come into the world knowing. You don't just appear in pre contact position. You need to fly there. Furthermore there is no guarantee that a new pilot won't get distracted, so yes there are reasons to have additional info about what your aircraft is doing.

 

There also is a throttle setting for AAR, it's pretty obvious, but it seems like you just can't help but to point out anything that you're not currently thinking about as a mistake even if it's not. In DCS you can set the mission parameters in the ME and this means they're the same every time you fly the mission. For a given training mission, you're going to want to hold the same throttle position every time. Now this might not be the same position every time you refuel, but it points out to the pilot what in the cockpit they might want to reference while refueling.

[Fri13]

5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There is only one possible and logical argument for why an easy mode Aerial Refueling should not be in the game. And yes it is a game first and foremost, and a sim second. And the only logical argument is that it is too costly, in time, or money, or both, from a development perspective.

Everything else is elitist BS. Sorry to say it, but that's the way it is.

 

Even that argument doesn't work, as we are talking about assisting feature that purpose is to help (32% of players based to wild assumption of that SharpeXP linked poll) players, and when players can learn things easier way and start either mastering it or can perform it (as otherwise couldn't) it will then increase sales for aircraft that requires at some point to be able perform the in-air refueling. Hence developing something such just brings more money, more players and so on is benefactor in the development perspective. 

 

Example even some Eagle Dynamics managers do not know how to perform cold-start procedures for most aircraft - because to them their time is better used for other things in simulator than sitting in parking slot and pressing buttons to start-up the aircraft.  They love how they can just press a "Auto Start" and be going soon.

 

Sure elitist players goes "That is not the proper way to start aircraft" as even for many the air-start is improper way. But isn't it nice that there are various different ways to do things?

 

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You do need additional information because tanker approach speed isn't something people come into the world knowing. You don't just appear in pre contact position. You need to fly there.

Sure there is a procedure to fly to the tanker but again that’s the easy part. The tanker will give you their speed and altitude but it doesn’t really matter so much. Just don’t approach Texaco at Mach 1

17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

For a given training mission, you're going to want to hold the same throttle position every time.

No. That’s not going to work. In order to keep a constant speed with the tanker you need to walk the throttles back and forth. It’s impossible that there’s one exact position and you could just hold it there. Just like your foot on the gas in your car in traffic that’s subconsciously on and off it. That’s the technique. There’s a lag too so you have to be able to predict that. That’s the key. 

[Dragon1-1]

41 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s nothing a DCS style training mission can do for you short of showing you which buttons to press. And a voice-over saying “now just hold steady and fly close formation with the tanker”

You can do better than that. Seriously, check out BalticDragon's missions. Naming the alignment cues is important, and there is a number of tricks that let you establish and maintain that formation in a precise way. Every aircraft is different, and for the USAF aircraft, there are additional considerations like the boom and the tanker lights (especially useful for the Viper, which lacks a canopy bow that is usually a good reference). BTW, there's no AAR practice for the A-10, F-16 or Mirage, or any Red aircraft, unless the JF-17 guys added one since I tried it out. Just for the Hornet, Tomcat and Harrier. 

 

Oh, and I'm not being "led" anywhere, considering that I can pretty much top up every jet in DCS in one go (maybe except the Mirage, but that's because there's no good place to try and it's got a big tank, anyway). You're the one too blind to see that blind trail and error is not a good way of learning AAR. Your comments about rejoins also leads me to believe that you've either been doing it for so long as to be completely oblivious at how non-obvious it is, or you suck at making smooth rejoins. In fact, there's a lot to be said about making a smooth, quick and fuel efficient rejoin, and it's something that needs to be practiced as well. That's another thing a properly explained training mission would help with, especially with something like A-10 (or the Harrier, where it does just that), which don't have a radar and thus require a combination of TACAN and Mk1 Eyeball to estimate closure, something that again isn't trivial.

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

there's no AAR practice for the A-10, F-16 or Mirage, or any Red aircraft, unless the JF-17 guys added one since I tried it out. Just for the Hornet, Tomcat and Harrier. 

Agree there could be. But you can find those in the user files section or make them. It’s the easiest mission to make on the ME even I can do it. And of course because there was a YouTube tutorial on how to make an AAR mission...

Edited March 26, 2021 by SharpeXB

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

36 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There is only one possible and logical argument for why an easy mode Aerial Refueling should not be in the game. And yes it is a game first and foremost, and a sim second. And the only logical argument is that it is too costly, in time, or money, or both, from a development perspective.

Everything else is elitist BS. Sorry to say it, but that's the way it is.

 

 

This. As someone who has learned to enjoy AAR operations, the only decent reason to exclude consideration for now is workload. The engine is a mess, missiles desperately need looking at, in addition to a litany of other issues.

 

Otherwise, it's silly elitism over a video game. If someone seriously feels that a simplified AAR option is setting them back because they had to learn how to AAR the hard way? I hope better days are ahead for them, because that could be literal rock bottom in someone's life.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Your comments about rejoins also leads me to believe that you've either been doing it for so long as to be completely oblivious at how non-obvious it is, or you suck at making smooth rejoins.

My rejoin technique is to come in on the tanker at 500kts and use the tail hook on the Hornet to slow me down...

[Exorcet]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure there is a procedure to fly to the tanker but again that’s the easy part. The tanker will give you their speed and altitude but it doesn’t really matter so much. Just don’t approach Texaco at Mach 1

No. That’s not going to work. In order to keep a constant speed with the tanker you need to walk the throttles back and forth. It’s impossible that there’s one exact position and you could just hold it there. Just like your foot on the gas in your car in traffic that’s subconsciously on and off it. That’s the technique. There’s a lag too so you have to be able to predict that. That’s the key. 

Easy or not, you're not going to know it in advance if nothing tells you, so it would be a pretty valid part of a training mission.

 

You went a step more detailed than I did about the throttles and you are correct, but you're still going to be hovering around a certain average position. You'd point that out to the pilot in training so they have a better idea of where to place the throttle and what range they might need to use to keep up with the tanker. The point isn't to have the pilot set the throttle perfectly and forget it (which won't work out well with turbulence, etc) but to point out potentially useful references in the cockpit.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Exorcet

[Dragon1-1]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Agree there could be. But you can find those in the user files section or make them. It’s the easiest mission to make on the ME even I can do it. And of course because there was a YouTube tutorial on how to make an AAR mission...

In other words, use a 3rd party tutorial to do the devs' jobs for them. For a module you probably paid a lump sum for in your currency of choice. Yeah, that's not what I expect for a finished, polished product. AAR is part of the module's functionality, and it's the devs' job to provide training missions that cover everything from the start of the rejoin to the disconnect and establishing yourself on the tanker's right wing. They can do it in house or commission a member of community, but they should do it before the release.

[Tippis]

2 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

I'm not stepping away from anything bro. You shouldn't try and tell other what to step away from just because you don't like it.

Good thing I'm not doing that, then. I'm simply saying that if you've run so dry that you have to go on the fallacy parade to even have something to post, you really have nothing of value to post at all. It's just a function of how fallacies work and of when they start creeping into the discussion.

 

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Your opinion is just that, yours! (took a page out of your book

See? Learning is fun.

 

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The hand holding unlimited fuel option is there as you mentioned.

I have no idea who you're addressing because I haven't mentioned any such hand-holding option. It's SharpeXP who keeps trying to offer that nonsense as an option while being utterly incapable of explaining (or even understanding) how that would work.

 

So no, quite the opposite: unlimited fuel is not there as an option. It offers no hand-holding and it's not a useful for any of the purposes of what is being discussed here. The reasons why it is not a valid option and why it offers no useful hand-holding have been extensively explained. The reason it is “not enough” is blindingly obvious: because it doesn't even remotely serve the purpose of what people are asking for.

 

It's a bit like burning a guy's shed down, and then wondering why this is “not enough” to fulfil his wish for a better shed.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tippis

[maxTRX]

@ the OP 70+'s :

 

How's your form flying?  It's been mentioned a zillion times already but here's your first lesson:

Since you're already a member of a group, tell your boss to fly lead, follow him in loose formation till he levels off.  Tell him to put his jet on auto throttle and set up an race track. Close it in.

Cross over from one side to the other and back few times. Get the feel for necessary throttling to maintain distance. Then settle in 'slot' position and stay there for 10 min. while the lead rolls out level to follow legs then turning around. Do this for 10, 20 flights, then... fall behind the tanker and see what happens.  The boss should proceed to lesson 2.

Unless you cannot see at all or have other eye-hand coordination problems. (I know, it life...) then wait for the 'crutch'.

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Easy or not, you're not going to know it in advance if nothing tells you, so it would be a pretty valid part of a training mission.

It’s really better if the “practice” mission skips the long approach and starts you a bit astern of the tanker. That’s how the Hornet one is. The approach is relatively easy. The part which requires all the practice is up close. Repeating the long approach every time isn’t very time efficient. If you want to practice the approach you could open up any canned mission with an tanker in it. 

31 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You'd point that out to the pilot in training so they have a better idea of where to place the throttle and what range they might need to use to keep up with the tanker.

If they don’t know how the throttle works they’re not ready for AAR. I don’t think anyone is that noobish though.