not planned Easy mode AAR

[Exorcet]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Nothing in DCS requires you to learn AAR. It’s rather an advanced skill an not something normal or casual players are required to do. 
The OPs situation with this group having members who haven’t learned to do this is easy enough to remedy. How about teaching them how instead of making them participate in missions that they aren’t ready for. Or, slow down and go at a pace that they can follow. Like any group sport or activity. There are plenty of solutions besides an Easy Button in the sim. 

Yes we've established that nothing requires you to learn AAR, so why are people adamant on making people learn AAR? If it's unnecessary, let them use an assist.

 

To say that practice fixes everything is ignoring the issues brought up in the through out the thread of the thread. You can't teach away loss of physical ability, imperfect controls, lack of peripheral vision, lack of free time, juggling mission accessibility, etc. But this is all besides the point anyway, whether people learn or not only affects them, so why care?

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So that perfectly fine for them to figure out a solution for this. Now ED doesn’t have to spend time on it. The logical objection to any of these wishlist items is that the Dev’s time could be better spent on more important things. So if campaign developers already have a solution for differing skill levels in the game why should ED need to do anything?

ED should already be spending time on AAR. Like I said before the AI needs tweaking, the boom and basket are ghosts, the boom can't stabilize a refueling aircraft at all, and the tanker lights aren't easy to see. DCS could also use some documentation on realistic tanker altitudes and speeds. Right now you have to look outside of the sim to find those. So I think it's everyone's interest for ED to spend developer time on AAR, and while they are there it would be a sensible time to add an assist feature.

 

[shagrat]

7 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I'll buy that for a dollar! A Contact box would be a training aid brother. You got my ear!

That's what I mentioned in my first post, IIRC.

Together with a "magnetic/sticky" basket that would not disconnect at the slightest slip, when the tanker goes into a turn.

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

How are you supposed to practice something you aren't taught or coached on in the first place? And no, it can teach you how to do it - something similar to what Desert Fox proposed here (which I think would be very useful for training).

 

However, I don't see an issue with defining a moving zone and having a fuel transfer be a triggerable action - we're half-way there already.

 

See again, once you learn to do this you’ll realize these kind of things aren’t going to help or help enough. You know where you’re supposed to be relative to the tanker by your sight picture and such. Not by some green box, which you’ll become dependent on and then be lost when you try to switch it off. Those kind of aids like labels just become a crutch. 

7 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Anyway we will see, ED is aware of the "problem" and I am sure if they go for it, they will do it right, as an option, so everyone can play DCS the way he prefers, in line with their philosophy.

And it becomes yet another server setting in MP... that’s really the other problem. These option split up an already small player base online.

[Jackjack171]

Just now, shagrat said:

That's what I mentioned in my first post, IIRC.

Together with a "magnetic/sticky" basket that would not disconnect at the slightest slip, when the tanker goes into a turn.

I had to swirl it around in my head. You are correct! I'm all for a training aid, just not an out! That's the weakest thought process ever conceived!  That's what the OP was wanting. If not, he needs to word it better. The other thing is, with all that's happening with DCS, wasting time on that just because some are too inept or lazy to do it, is really just catering to a very small majority that want easy street! There comes a time when you have to just cowboy up!

[shagrat]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

See again, once you learn to do this you’ll realize these kind of things aren’t going to help or help enough. You know where you’re supposed to be relative to the tanker by your sight picture and such. Not by some green box, which you’ll become dependent on and then be lost when you try to switch it off. Those kind of aids like labels just become a crutch. 

Agreed, that's why I propose a magnetic tether and an adjustable "contact box". That could ease the actual AAR process and can be tuned down, when you improve.

Like the axis curves people adjust until they have a better feel for the joystick.

 

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Agreed, that's why I propose a magnetic tether and an adjustable "contact box". That could ease the actual AAR process and can be tuned down, when you improve.

I know it sounds repetitive but once you get this you realize training “aids” like that will be a hindrance to learning and not a help. 

[shagrat]

1 minute ago, Jackjack171 said:

I had to swirl it around in my head. You are correct! I'm all for a training aid, just not an out! That's the weakest thought process ever conceived!  That's what the OP was wanting. If not, he needs to word it better. The other thing is, with all that's happening with DCS, wasting time on that just because some are too inept or lazy to do it, is really just catering to a very small majority that want easy street! There comes a time when you have to just cowboy up!

The fun fact is, an "Autorefuel" would be the easiest solution with the least impact on development, as everything is already in the sim. Lock controls from player and AI AAR process. A simple Radio menu option that triggers the lock controls and activates AI AAR, when you are "ready pre-contact", then unlocks controls once you are on the right wing holding area.

That said this is not helpful to learn or ease the learning process. That's where the adjustable aids are far better.

 

[Jackjack171]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

I know it sounds repetitive but once you get this you realize training “aids” like that will be a hindrance to learning and not a help. 

That's a big possibility! So sad! 

[shagrat]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I know it sounds repetitive but once you get this you realize training “aids” like that will be a hindrance to learning and not a help. 

That's what some geniuses told about axis tuning and curves... Let's say my personal experience is different. Curves adjustment helped me a lot learning the Huey! I fly without curves now, but it did help a lot to gradually reduce them.

Rudder assist can help as well, only auto rudder is counterproductive if you have rudder pedals, as it conflicts with your input.

Padlock is very useful if you're not the owner of a head tracker or VR... Most people start with easy comms, then learn the radios, etc.

[Repth]

Depends on your style of play. If this is mostly about competitive MP, then yes, for some that can be an issue. We have to remember though, that there are several play styles associated with DCS. Everyone has to start somewhere to learn.

 

I mainly fall into the "view DCS as a sim" side of things and in my group I can usually have someone with no experience air refueling connecting to the boom or drogue in about an hour. We then incorporate it into our missions to get in some practice time. It takes patience and a lot of support but eventually it clicks. It's always rewarding to see the sense of accomplishment they get from making their first full transfer without a disconnect and they have every right to be proud of that.  

 

Since that is not an option for everyone, I'm all for a training aide. No magical transfer of fuel though and it should be a sever side option. We already know that ED have plans to adjust tanker physics with their new S-3 model, they can tack the task on there so that they don't take resources away from any other projects they are working on. 

 

I might make an attempt at a training mission 

[Jackjack171]

Just now, shagrat said:

The fun fact is, an "Autorefuel" would be the easiest solution with the least impact on development, as everything is already in the sim. Lock controls from player and AI AAR process. A simple Radio menu option that triggers the lock controls and activates AI AAR, when you are "ready pre-contact", then unlocks controls once you are on the right wing holding area.

That said this is not helpful to learn or ease the learning process. That's where the adjustable aids are far better.

 

I've never used it. The most difficult platform for AAR for me was the F-14, and I'm good at it now. I just kept doing it! Frustrated and all, but it got done. Personally, I agree with you to a point. Dictating how others gameplay is not my bag. But the quitters attitude is just appalling! Some need a shot of testosterone! Some aren't even competitive in Air-to air combat! They just sling -120's all over the place. Why start something and not see it through? Why conduct a half arsed  mission? Mind-blowing bro!

[Tippis]

 

48 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So that perfectly fine for them to figure out a solution for this.

Not really, no as has been explained to you. It's not fine because there are no solutions for this. The game simply doesn't allow it. You just haven't bothered — as always — to take the time to read what people write or do any research into the things you make statements about.

 

Quote

The logical objection to any of these wishlist items is that the Dev’s time could be better spent on more important things. So if campaign developers already have a solution for differing skill levels in the game why should ED need to do anything?

Because campaign developers don't have a solution for this and because you have been unable to articulate what “more important things” there are than to make the game do what the developers say they want it to do. To have the effect you're saying, the thing you are adamantly against needs to happen.

 

28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

See again, once you learn to do this you’ll realize these kind of things aren’t going to help or help enough.

A couple of millennia worth of human existence prove you wrong on this. And now you're just moving the goalposts. First it was “won't help you”, now it is “won't help enough”. Both are false, as any educated person will clearly see since they have actually gone through the very same process you say cannot happen.

 

The thing about helpers and teaching tools is that they help and teach. Once you no longer need them you… [drumroll] no longer need them, but until that point, they will improve your learning. You're just refusing to actually listen to the propositions and dismissing them out of hand because from that position of wilful ignorance, you are incapable of imagining how they will help. If you were able to read and consider what people actually say, you'd have no trouble figuring out how and why those ideas would help and do the exact thing you're saying that people should be doing (while at the same time saying that what they should be doing can't be done… for no adequately explained reason).

 

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I know it sounds repetitive but once you get this you realize training “aids” like that will be a hindrance to learning and not a help. 

The reason it sounds repetitive is because you just keep repeating yourself. You're not actually making any cogent or intelligent point — it's just your standard rote repetition of something without any basis or reasoning or explanation or anything behind it. It's as if you have some irrational belief that the last word will be the winning one and since you can't come up with any actual argumentation, repetition of baseless drivel will have to suffice instead.

 

Your inability to learn by being shown or helped is not universal. Quite the opposite: that's just how humans normally learn the best.

 

I know it sounds repetitive but there still exists exactly zero arguments against this feature. None. Zilch. Only arguments from ignorance, from incredulity, based on strawmen or ad hominems — all fallacies and no actual reasons.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tippis

[shagrat]

On 3/22/2021 at 4:27 PM, Furiz said:

 

The reason why real pilots ever fly as much as 2 different planes throughout their carrier tells a thing or two about learning curves, flying every plane makes you jack of all trades but master of none. Pick one plane and fly it for few months and you'll manage your AAR, with practice ofc.

 

AAR takes practice and patience and not jumping from one plane to another cause every plane is different.

 

 

Why not make an AAR mission?,

you have 70+ members, so make missions so that only members that passed through training (and are capable of AAR) can participate, like in real airforce.

Do AAR training missions with your members that can't do it, teach the rookies? That's how squadrons do it, they train together so they can do missions together.

You are aware, that you actually promote to include hurdles for the elderly, or physically challenged to separate and exclude them, based on their disabilities?

In the "real air force" 99% of us won't be flying a fighter jet, that's why we play DCS, to pretend and have fun. 

A vigorous selection program to weed out the "old, weak and incapable" may make sense if you fly a million dollar fighter jet and put lives at risk, but for a video game? Really? ...and keep in mind a lot(!) of people have a life and a family beside the PC and can't just "train until it clicks", because they can't find more than a two hour slot once a week to fly DCS.

Assuming just 8-10 hrs to at least get a connect reliably, means 2 to 3 months(!) worth of playing time spent to learn AAR instead. That is if you don't start from scratch, from weekend to weekend. An aid to help through the process, ease the whole procedure for people with disabilities or who struggle because of age, even if it's just to help casual players to have a couple hours of fun with their friends, it is well worth it.

[Jackjack171]

40 minutes ago, Tippis said:

 

 

 

The thing about helpers and teaching tools is that they help and teach. Once you no longer need them you… [drumroll] no longer need them, but until that point, they will improve your learning.

 

That's all fine and dandy but help is not what the OP was asking for. He was asking for an "out"! There's a difference in asking for help because you want to learn and asking someone to do it for you! At this point, I'd help him (or anyone else) if I thought I could but it is quite clear that the majority don't want help, they want it done for them. Aids are great bro! No denying that! But anything else is, a crutch really!

[SharpeXB]

55 minutes ago, shagrat said:

That's what some geniuses told about axis tuning and curves... Let's say my personal experience is different. Curves adjustment helped me a lot learning the Huey! I fly without curves now, but it did help a lot to gradually reduce them.

Rudder assist can help as well, only auto rudder is counterproductive if you have rudder pedals, as it conflicts with your input.

Padlock is very useful if you're not the owner of a head tracker or VR... Most people start with easy comms, then learn the radios, etc.

The curve isn’t replacing you real inputs to the game. An it’s actually there for a completely different reason than game aids. It’s not really an artificial aid. It’s a control adjustment. 
Rudder assist, I’ve never tried because as you can tell by this point I wouldn’t ever enable it. But I can imagine it would just screw up your reflexes trying to learn for real. And it’s ED bowing to the crowd who tried for five or ten minutes taking off in the P-51 then cried it’s “too hard!” 

Easy Comms... another ridiculous aid. How do you think a radio works? You’ve got one in your car.... it’s kinda the same...

DCS players are lazy! 

[shagrat]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

See again, once you learn to do this you’ll realize these kind of things aren’t going to help or help enough. You know where you’re supposed to be relative to the tanker by your sight picture and such. Not by some green box, which you’ll become dependent on and then be lost when you try to switch it off. Those kind of aids like labels just become a crutch. 

And it becomes yet another server setting in MP... that’s really the other problem. These option split up an already small player base online.

Why should it be a server setting? And why should it split anything???

You fly to the tanker and refuel manually, then I fly to the tanker and  refuel with the settings in my client (like rudder assist)... Even if I would use an Auto-AAR cheat that flys me to the basket, tanks and puts me in the holding area with AI it has the same "game breaking" effect on you as when I hit "Auto Startup" in the cold and dark cockpit.

Assists don't change the server settings, but the client behviour/flight and system model.

[Jackjack171]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

The curve isn’t replacing you real inputs to the game. An it’s actually there for a completely different reason than game aids. It’s not really an artificial aid. It’s a control adjustment. 
Rudder assist, I’ve never tried because as you can tell by this point I wouldn’t ever enable it. But I can imagine it would just screw up your reflexes trying to learn for real. And it’s ED bowing to the crowd who tried for five or ten minutes taking off in the P-51 then cried it’s “too hard!” 

Easy Comms... another ridiculous aid. How do you think a radio works? You’ve got one in your car.... it’s kinda the same...

DCS players are lazy! 

I kid you not, there was a guy asking for autopilot in one of the Warbirds forums. I fly the Spitfire, Jug and P-51 a lot so I forget exactly which one it was. I mean, what's next? Flying sharks with freaking laser beams? JK, but wow! You can't make this stuff up! It's the ultimate form of lazy, just shameful!

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Why should it be a server setting? And why should it split anything???

Features which are related to player skill are usually a server setting, if the goal is for it to be fairly competitive. Too many settings split up players as they want to go on servers with their preferred settings. But in a sim like this those options are quite limited. 

[shagrat]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The curve isn’t replacing you real inputs to the game. An it’s actually there for a completely different reason than game aids. It’s not really an artificial aid. It’s a control adjustment. 
Rudder assist, I’ve never tried because as you can tell by this point I wouldn’t ever enable it. But I can imagine it would just screw up your reflexes trying to learn for real. And it’s ED bowing to the crowd who tried for five or ten minutes taking off in the P-51 then cried it’s “too hard!” 

Easy Comms... another ridiculous aid. How do you think a radio works? You’ve got one in your car.... it’s kinda the same...

DCS players are lazy! 

So if you happen to be not wealthy enough, to afford rudder pedals, that qualifies as lazy?

Auto rudder and rudder assist, where introduced to help people to play DCS without certain hardware.

You are aware that Matt Wagner (ED) is sitting in a wheelchair, so that's likely one reason ED considered to add a solution to fly warbirds that does not require fully functioning legs...

Some people really need to check their attitude.

[shagrat]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Features which are related to player skill are usually a server setting, if the goal is for it to be fairly competitive. Too many settings split up players as they want to go on servers with their preferred settings. But in a sim like this those options are quite limited. 

As I said and detailed, none of the assists for refueling has any impact on "competition" other than ego. As with all the other flying(!) aids it is set individually.

Keep in mind DCS is mostly a SP game, not a MMPOG, despite the vocal crowd on the forum. The Competitive MP is an even smaller niche.

You need not fear the refuel aids they won't make your gun miss, or show the enemy your location or provide auto lock, etc. they will simply help some people to refuel on the tanker, nothing more. And if you want to refuel without any helpers, just don't switch them on. Simple like the rudder assist.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by shagrat

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I kid you not, there was a guy asking for autopilot in one of the Warbirds forums. I fly the Spitfire, Jug and P-51 a lot so I forget exactly which one it was. I mean, what's next? Flying sharks with freaking laser beams? JK, but wow! You can't make this stuff up! It's the ultimate form of lazy, just shameful!

Yeah I don’t see people in any other game always asking for so many helpers. Like an autopilot for WWII

And every game is hard and every game consumes lots of hours. It’s the nature of the beast. For whatever reason DCS seems to attract players who are just unfamiliar with gaming in general. It’s probably the only game they own. This is sure a unique niche product but it’s still a game. Games require skill and skill takes lots of time to acquire. 
And most players want games to consume lots of time and want games to be challenging and difficult! Not something you master in a few hours and are done with. I bought the A-10C on a Steam sale 9 years ago and knew completely nothing about aircraft. I read the 671 page flight manual on my iPhone. And it never once occurred to me to switch on any of the game aids because that would just be a waste of my money (all $20 of it). I got a hardcore sim for a reason. For the journey, not the destination. 

15 minutes ago, shagrat said:

So if you happen to be not wealthy enough, to afford rudder pedals, that qualifies as lazy?

Auto rudder and rudder assist, where introduced to help people to play DCS without certain hardware.

Thor are two different things. Auto Rudder replaces the rudder axis for those without that control. I’m sure the majority of players likely don’t have rudder pedals. Rudder Assist is a slider “aid” to help takeoff handling in the Warbirds. One is a control setting the other is an aid. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by SharpeXB

[shagrat]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Thor are two different things. Auto Rudder replaces the rudder axis for those without that control. Rudder Assist is a slider “aid” to help takeoff handling in the Warbirds. One is a control setting the other is an aid. 

Yep, one is to compensate "no rudder", the other to compensate for shitty twist-stick or key input instead of smooth analogue axis.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Yep, one is to compensate "no rudder", the other to compensate for shitty twist-stick or key input instead of smooth analogue axis.

The solution for twist stick input is the sensitivity curve. The other setting is actually ‘Takeoff Assistance” meant to create an easier takeoff. 

[Jackjack171]

29 minutes ago, shagrat said:

So if you happen to be not wealthy enough, to afford rudder pedals, that qualifies as lazy?

Auto rudder and rudder assist, where introduced to help people to play DCS without certain hardware.

You are aware that Matt Wagner (ED) is sitting in a wheelchair, so that's likely one reason ED considered to add a solution to fly warbirds that does not require fully functioning legs...

Some people really need to check their attitude.

I empathize with what you are saying about disabled dudes. But most of the time it's not that. The lazy part was not meant as a blanket statement that everyone who ask for help is lazy. It's the manner and reasoning behind why some of these guys ask, or flat out demand in some cases. If you read some of the request close enough, it's either "it's too hard" or "I don't have time" or some mix of it all. 

I can't show up to a weightlifting competition underweight and not ripped, then ask them to cater the entire event to me just because I wasn't ready! There was a user that was asking ED to dumb down settings somewhere once upon a time. Really? If I drive a Maserati and someone else drives a Prius, should I have to drive slower? I'm not rich. But I worked and saved (a pension helps too) and I made sure I got equipment that can handle DCS. If I had no money to play DCS properly, I just wouldn't or I would wait until I could. IJS

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jackjack171

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The curve isn’t replacing you real inputs to the game. An it’s actually there for a completely different reason than game aids. It’s not really an artificial aid. It’s a control adjustment. 

No, it's there for the exact same reason as game aids, and it is wholly artificial: to make your inputs work differently than they should so you don't need the same speed and precision as you otherwise would. They're a game aid — you're massively fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

 

53 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Features which are related to player skill are usually a server setting,

That's not actually how DCS works, you know, and helper settings in particular don't work remotely like that. Actually, just to clarify: you do know this, right? You have actually played DCS in a multiplayer setting and checked out how player skill settings work. right? Or are you just making baseless claims form a position of absolute ignorance as always?

  

37 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

bought the A-10C on a Steam sale 9 years ago and knew completely nothing about aircraft. I read the 671 page flight manual on my iPhone. And it never once occurred to me to switch on any of the game aids because that would just be a waste of my money (all $20 of it).

All you're saying here is that you have a preference for the inefficient, unnecessary, pointless, and most counterproductive method of learning.

Your preference is not universal, nor is it actually to be recommended because of how bad an idea it is to do things that way. If that's how you want to do it, then sure, you be you, but don't ruin the game for other players just because you never bothered to learn how to learn.

 

17 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I can't show up to a weightlifting competition underweight

This isn't a weightlifting competition. It's actually not a competition at all. It's a study sim designed with the express purpose to hand-hold players of all skill levels, with all kinds of functions and features to teach players to play the game and to adjust the difficulty to match their preferences, but where a lean towards realism is always the preferred undercurrent. Except in this area for some unfathomable reason. Here, there must apparently be no helpers, no adjusting preferences, no lean towards increased realism.

 

So your simile is pretty much completely inapplicable for a myriad of reasons, and even if there was anything remotely parallel between the two, no-one is asking for what you're suggesting, so it would be irrelevant and besides the point anyway. If anything, the exact opposite is the case.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tippis