not planned Easy mode AAR

[will-]

their is already a easy refuel ability in the game that was removed.  pretty sure someone in these 13 pages would be smart enough to just drop a refuel plane in the mission editor that only refuels w/ the ez mode the game only had in ver 1.5 or so.  

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, shagrat said:

Can we please stop the "Unlimited fuel is the solution" argument. It has been explained half a dozen times, why that is even worse and killing Immersion and realism.

Unlimited fuel equals:

No fuel management

No change to weight/flight model

No possibility to train AAR if you start with full tanks

Sure unlimited fuel is obviously unrealistic. I don’t understand though why “easy AAR” is realistic. Why is your plane magically flying itself or whatever realistic? If you want realism then just learn to AAR. It’s not an impossible skill. Immersion and realism are the incentive to learn it. 

2 hours ago, shagrat said:

Pilots IRL don't need a f...ing keyboard to talk to the tanker... And make the tanker more talkative and the boom operator do his job... 

Tip: You should be trimmed and stable behind the tanker before pressing that “F1” key. You should be able to take your hands completely off the stick at this point. So sure pressing a keyboard key is a little distracting at this stage but if it’s too hard and you’re all over the sky at this point, you aren’t ready to connect. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, shagrat said:

Or for the A-10 IRL the boom operator moves the boom in position long before you fly in the box, so it gives you a reference by keeping the boom tip on the tankers nose...

Don’t look at the boom! Fly formation with the tanker. 
 

I can tell by your posts you haven’t got this yet. 

Please... learn to do this first before making suggestions on how to “improve”it. 

[SharpeXB]

49 minutes ago, Gronank said:

I am sympathetic towards anyone who struggles with AAR and become excluded because of it,

If these players are excluded, it’s not by the game. You can fly plenty of missions and really quite long sorties without AAR. These players, like in the OP, are being excluded by their squadrons. It’s those groups who aren’t willing to fly missions that accommodate all their members. That’s on them. Don’t ask for ED to change the game when the problem is of your own making. 

54 minutes ago, Gronank said:

but asking for convoluted helper mechanics is the wrong way to go.

Agree. But then you went on to describe a bunch of convoluted helper mechanics 

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, Gronank said:

I am sympathetic towards anyone who struggles with AAR and become excluded because of it, but asking for convoluted helper mechanics is the wrong way to go.

Why is that?

 

Quote

A far more practical solution would be to simply add a method in the script API to set fuel state on aircraft.

It would be simple, for certain, but I'm not entirely convinced about “practical”. While it would have some interesting uses, it wouldn't nearly as applicable as proper helper mechanics to a wide range of issues, most notably the ones where you still want to maintain the same design for everyone or where you want to actually construct missions that help people learn how to do it. It's really only a step below unlimited fuel, and would also be a whole lot messier to implement for a large grouping of aircraft where some would want to use it and others not.

 

Quote

There are only upsides

There are also downsides.

• It doesn't help with training.
• It will require tons of complex scripting and/or trigger setups to make it work, and they'll be exponentially more complex as you add more aircraft to the mix.

It's not a bad idea as a general scripting tool to be added, but its utility for solving the problems described in this thread seems a bit tenuous.

 

33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t understand though why “easy AAR” is realistic.

Try reading the thread. It has been explained in full. If you don't understand by now, it's either because you lack the fundamental cognitive capacity of understanding anything to begin with, or because you actively choose to not understand just so you can maintain this feigned ignorance as a pathetic excuse to try to get the last word in in the vain hope that the game never improves for some utterly insane reason.

 

it's really up to you right now if you want to blame your lack of understanding on just outright stupidity or on deliberate trolling, but those are your only options.

 

33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Immersion and realism are the incentive to learn it. 

Then why are you so adamantly against the notion of allowing that realism and that incentive? You have yet to present anything that even remotely, through thick fog, with the sun in your eyes could somehow with a whole heaping of fantastic imagination be confused something that might resemble an argument.

 

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If these players are excluded, it’s not by the game.

Of course it is. This has also been explained in full. See above why this wilful ignorance on your part is not doing you any favours.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Tippis

[shagrat]

1 hour ago, Gronank said:

This thread is in my estimation completely off the rails.

 

I am sympathetic towards anyone who struggles with AAR and become excluded because of it, but asking for convoluted helper mechanics is the wrong way to go.

 

A far more practical solution would be to simply add a method in the script API to set fuel state on aircraft. Then mission designers get to choose how to deal with players who struggle. Maybe prompt "You've been loitering around this tanker for 5 minutes and are still running on fumes, do you wish to have your tanks filled so you get on with things", or something else, depending on preference.

 

There are only upsides

• Empowers mission designers to create the experiences they want for all kinds of players
• There's still a point in learning AAR
• Easy to implement (There are likely reasons it is not trivial, but it is most certainly simpler than building "automagically fly the plane" functionality for every module with AAR capability)

Yeah, if you can't refuel, you won't see your plane refuel. But really, that experience isn't worth much when it isn't earned and you still get to participate.

The whole idea is to make refueling possible, for people without $1500 HOTAS and equipment, as well as give beginners a way to gradually adjust while learning in the process.

I struggle to understand, why it is an issue for some, as it only affects the experience of the guy using the options.

The only thing I can imagine is jealousy, or a sense of loss of exclusivity ("he did not earn the right to AAR, as he did not struggle as hard as I did")? I mean really?

[shagrat]

30 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Why is that?

 

It would be simple, for certain, but I'm not entirely convinced about “practical”. While it would have some interesting uses, it wouldn't nearly as applicable as proper helper mechanics to a wide range of issues, most notably the ones where you still want to maintain the same design for everyone or where you want to actually construct missions that help people learn how to do it. It's really only a step below unlimited fuel, and would also be a whole lot messier to implement for a large grouping of aircraft where some would want to use it and others not.

 

There are also downsides.

• It doesn't help with training.
• It will require tons of complex scripting and/or trigger setups to make it work, and they'll be exponentially more complex as you add more aircraft to the mix.

It's not a bad idea as a general scripting tool to be added, but its utility for solving the problems described in this thread seems a bit tenuous.

 

Try reading the thread. It has been explained in full. If you don't understand by now, it's either because you lack the fundamental cognitive capacity of understanding anything to begin with, or because you actively choose to not understand just so you can maintain this feigned ignorance as a pathetic excuse to try to get the last word in in the vain hope that the game never improves for some utterly insane reason.

 

it's really up to you right now if you want to blame your lack of understanding on just outright stupidity or on deliberate trolling, but those are your only options.

 

Then why are you so adamantly against the notion of allowing that realism and that incentive? You have yet to present anything that even remotely, through thick fog, with the sun in your eyes could somehow with a whole heaping of fantastic imagination be confused something that might resemble an argument.

 

Of course it is. This has also been explained in full. See above why this wilful ignorance on your part is not doing you any favours.

 

He does not want to lose his feeling of achievement... and he won't come up with any real argument, as he had none other than "But I don't want it to be easier for you".

Waste of time, let's see what the team makes of the request. May take a while to get up the list of priorities, but my guess is, the people in charge of decisions are far more open to improvements to DCS than most people think.

[oldcrusty]

I know it's hard but I never realized that 'passing gas' was such a passionate subject.  Essays have been written...  I wish I could write one but with my slow typing... forget it.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, shagrat said:

The whole idea is to make refueling possible, for people without $1500 HOTAS and equipment, as well as give beginners a way to gradually adjust while learning in the process.

I struggle to understand, why it is an issue for some, as it only affects the experience of the guy using the options.

The only thing I can imagine is jealousy, or a sense of loss of exclusivity ("he did not earn the right to AAR, as he did not struggle as hard as I did")? I mean really?

The issue is what you’re proposing won’t actually help players learn, creates extra work for ED and could divide up multiplayer. 

 

Also you’re sorta perpetuating some common falsehoods about AAR which discourages new people. It does not require a $1,500 HOTAS or fancy equipment.

3 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

I know it's hard but I never realized that 'passing gas' was such a passionate subject.  Essays have been written...  I wish I could write one but with my slow typing... forget it.

Amazing to me as well that this subjects stirs up so much debate. I think we’re feeling the frustration from people trying to learn. 
 

AAR isn’t even a vital part of the game. You can live without it, really. 

[Tippis]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

The issue is what you’re proposing won’t actually help players learn, creates extra work for ED and could divide up multiplayer. 

All proven false. Try reading the thread.

 

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Also you’re sorta perpetuating some common falsehoods about AAR which discourages new people. It does not require a $1,500 HOTAS or fancy equipment.

Good thing that he didn't actually say that, then, and that this is just another case of you making up nonsense because you are so desperately afraid to let this discussion go on in a constructive manner.

 

Why is it that you are unable to read and respond to the points being made?

Why is it that you cannot stick to actual facts and have to make up things to have something to say?

Why is it that you can't even explain how your own supposed arguments are meant to work?

 

Why don't you want players to have better opportunities and tools to learn?

Why don't you want players to be able to enjoy more realistic and complex missions?

Why do you suggest absolute unrealism as a solution to the wish for more realism?

[shagrat]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Don’t look at the boom! Fly formation with the tanker. 
 

I can tell by your posts you haven’t got this yet. 

Please... learn to do this first before making suggestions on how to “improve”it. 

Read Sierra 99's (real life boom operator) post on "how it's done in real life" first... The boom tip when lowered and hold in position makes a reference with the tanker nose to hold your picture. That way the pilot can fly into the box from slightly below, and continuously keep the angle until he is in position. Then (!) he flys formation with the tanker, while the boom operator (!) Plugs the boom in, instead of you flying to the boom.

In DCS the boom is only lowered, when you are in the box, already.

[Tippis]

Just now, shagrat said:

Read Sierra 99's (real life boom operator) post on "how it's done in real life" first... The boom tip when lowered and hold in position makes a reference with the tanker nose to hold your picture. That way the pilot can fly into the box from slightly below, and continuously keep the angle until he is in position. Then (!) he flys formation with the tanker, while the boom operator (!) Plugs the boom in, instead of you flying to the boom.

In DCS the boom is only lowered, when you are in the box, already.

Watch as he repeats the same talking point over, refusing to read what is being said, and end up effectively saying that reality is not real…

In 3… 2…

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

Read Sierra 99's (real life boom operator) post on "how it's done in real life" first... The boom tip when lowered and hold in position makes a reference with the tanker nose to hold your picture. That way the pilot can fly into the box from slightly below, and continuously keep the angle until he is in position. Then (!) he flys formation with the tanker, while the boom operator (!) Plugs the boom in, instead of you flying to the boom.

In DCS the boom is only lowered, when you are in the box, already.

It doesn’t matter what the game’s boom operator does. Don’t look at it! I’m sure any real pilot who’s done this is going to say the same thing. So yeah the boom in the game is a bit unreal. It doesn’t matter. It could be spinning in circles... don’t look at it!

And the game boom will move and connect to you. Just get into position, it will raise up and then connect. But don’t look at it!

[shagrat]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The issue is what you’re proposing won’t actually help players learn, creates extra work for ED and could divide up multiplayer. 

 

Also you’re sorta perpetuating some common falsehoods about AAR which discourages new people. It does not require a $1,500 HOTAS or fancy equipment.

Amazing to me as well that this subjects stirs up so much debate. I think we’re feeling the frustration from people trying to learn. 
 

AAR isn’t even a vital part of the game. You can live without it, really. 

Are you dumb or purposely ignoring what I post?

As we with auto startup, auto rudder, rudder assist, etc. it can't "divide" multiplayer, unless you enforce a shared screen to "verify" the other guys settings. How do you think AI refueling "automatically" currently divides Multiplayer?

Can you tell if a guy uses auto startup to fire up the jet? Or has rudder assist on 80% ? Without him telling you or having a look at his settings?

Total bogus Argument...

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

Are you dumb or purposely ignoring what I post?

As we with auto startup, auto rudder, rudder assist, etc. it can't "divide" multiplayer, unless you enforce a shared screen to "verify" the other guys settings. How do you think AI refueling "automatically" currently divides Multiplayer?

Can you tell if a guy uses auto startup to fire up the jet? Or has rudder assist on 80% ? Without him telling you or having a look at his settings?

Total bogus Argument...

Lots of people who replied here would want this “Easy AAR” to be a server setting. So it would split up players online just like labels vs no labels etc 

 

PS  if you want to lose your feeling of achievement, unfortunately you’ll really never need to AAR the A-10 in actual gameplay. It can fly forever.
But it’s cool to learn how. 

[shagrat]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t matter what the game’s boom operator does. Don’t look at it! I’m sure any real pilot who’s done this is going to say the same thing. So yeah the boom in the game is a bit unreal. It doesn’t matter. It could be spinning in circles... don’t look at it!

And the game boom will move and connect to you. Just get into position, it will raise up and then connect. But don’t look at it!

It DOES matter, as he is doing it utterly wrong. I don't dispute that it's possible to AAR with the current implementation... You can also refuel inverted if you practice enough, that doesn't mean we all have to refuel inverted now.

The ATC also "works" and "tells you what you need to know" that doesn't mean it is true to life. 

[Tippis]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t matter what the game’s boom operator does. Don’t look at it!

…1. How shocking.

 

Quote

I’m sure any real pilot who’s done this is going to say the same thing.

Did you actually read the post you were responding to? Did you read the post it was referring to? Do you understand that reality proves your assumptions wrong and that you — as you always end up doing — have finally exposed that you have no idea what you're talking about?

 

I must ask at this point, do you even understand how boom tanking works if you hold the belief that it doesn't matter what the boom operator does? Have you ever even seen how it works in the game or is this whole whole process of foot-stomping of yours entirely made from a position of absolute ignorance about every last single detail related to the topic at hand? Because the way you talk about it — the way you are wrong about everything you have ever said — it certainly looks that way.

 

  

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Lots of people who replied here would want this “Easy AAR” to be a server setting. So it would split up players online just like labels vs no labels etc 

Actually, the person who has been talking about server settings more than anyone is you, and that's mainly because you have no real familiarity with out DCS MP works and what server settings there actually are in this game. And no, just like a number of mission settings and even regular plane settings, there would be no split because you would never really notice unless you went out of the way to filter for it.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Tippis

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all

 

We have no plans for easy AAR. 

 

at this point the thread is starting to be full of bickering and back and forth, it wont be long before this thread is done and locked. 

 

please be respectful to each other even if you dont agree with them.

 

thanks

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

It DOES matter, as he is doing it utterly wrong. I don't dispute that it's possible to AAR with the current implementation... You can also refuel inverted if you practice enough, that doesn't mean we all have to refuel inverted now.

The ATC also "works" and "tells you what you need to know" that doesn't mean it is true to life. 

Take it from someone who knows how. Don’t look at the boom. It doesn’t matter what it’s doing in the game, you’re flying formation off the tanker, not the boom. Same with the drogue. Don’t look at it! That’s the #1 advice anyone will give you. 

[shagrat]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Lots of people who replied here would want this “Easy AAR” to be a server setting. So it would split up players online just like labels vs no labels etc 

 

PS  if you want to lose your feeling of achievement, unfortunately you’ll really never need to AAR the A-10 in actual gameplay. It can fly forever.
But it’s cool to learn how. 

How should you make this a server setting? It is processed on the client as part of the FM that needs to be tweaked. It doesn't work "on the server" the server gets the data from the client and represents the vector changes/position to the other clients, it doesn't process the FM of the clients.

As I said it only makes sense to put it as an option similar to auto Startup or rudder assist.

[Tippis]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Take it from someone who knows how. Don’t look at the boom.

You are still refusing to actually read what was said. You are saying that we shouldn't take it from someone who does this in real life. An actual operator is explaining how it is done, and you're contradicting that real-world experience by refusing to read and respond to the point being made. Why on earth should anyone take anything from someone who so wilfully ignores reality?

 

Stop trolling,

Read the post you're responding to.

Stop with the inane reality-denying nonsense.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, shagrat said:

How should you make this a server setting? It is processed on the client as part of the FM that needs to be tweaked. It doesn't work "on the server" the server gets the data from the client and represents the vector changes/position to the other clients, it doesn't process the FM of the clients.

As I said it only makes sense to put it as an option similar to auto Startup or rudder assist.

Lots of people want MP or at least the competitive combat type to be a level playing field. Many people have indicated that here. That extends to even features like the time it takes to rearm and refuel so players won’t just throw away their planes or ammo in combat. It affects the play style. 
I’m surprised Auto Start or Auto Rudder aren’t server side in DCS. In other sims Auto Rudder certainly is. 

[shagrat]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure unlimited fuel is obviously unrealistic. I don’t understand though why “easy AAR” is realistic. Why is your plane magically flying itself or whatever realistic? If you want realism then just learn to AAR. It’s not an impossible skill. Immersion and realism are the incentive to learn it. 

Tip: You should be trimmed and stable behind the tanker before pressing that “F1” key. You should be able to take your hands completely off the stick at this point. So sure pressing a keyboard key is a little distracting at this stage but if it’s too hard and you’re all over the sky at this point, you aren’t ready to connect. 

 

Did you notice what I and Fri13 actually asked for as as good solution? A magnetic tether, that nudges you in the final position, if you are close enough to a good position, already and maybe a slider to adjust the "contact" box for the basket/boom.

Not "the plane flying itself". A HELP to get AAR done, that you can gradually dial down, when you get better at approach and station keeping.

But let's say they implement an auto AAR client Option. Would you think you notice if it is the player flying the refueling or the AI autopiloting the plane? I mean the AI refuels on the same tanker, already...

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by shagrat

[Tippis]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Lots of people want MP or at least the competitive combat type to be a level playing field.

Good news. This kind of idea would make it a level playing field.

So presumably, you want this to be an option available in those situations.

 

You also earlier said you preferred more realism (before immediately suggesting the most unrealistic option imaginable).

So presumably, you want this to be an option available to increase realism for more people.

 

So why do you keep trying to argue against something that does exactly what you say you're looking for?

 

  

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m surprised Auto Start or Auto Rudder aren’t server side in DCS. In other sims Auto Rudder certainly is. 

It's not at all surprising once you learn how server options in DCS actually work (and what they are), and definitely not once you read what the developers themselves say DCS is supposed to offer in terms of a player experience.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Tippis

[shagrat]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Lots of people want MP or at least the competitive combat type to be a level playing field. Many people have indicated that here. That extends to even features like the time it takes to rearm and refuel so players won’t just throw away their planes or ammo in combat. It affects the play style. 
I’m surprised Auto Start or Auto Rudder aren’t server side in DCS. In other sims Auto Rudder certainly is. 

Soooo, assisted refueling makes the fuel flow faster???!!! Who asked for that? Grabbing straws now?

This gets more and more ridiculous.

So to sum it up: it's about a couple dozen testosterone flooded guys not wanting anyone else to step on their ego?