not planned Easy mode AAR

[Fri13]

18 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

No, the F/A-18C doesn't have a training mission for AAR - at least not in the training folder. There is an AAR qualification mission but that's it.

 

Can't speak for the Harrier.

 

Harrier has such mission. 

 

 

 

So only Harrier has it and Hornet with that Qualification mission. 

 

 

Can be seen that by default the air refueling is not to be trained. 

[Northstar98]

5 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Harrier has such mission. 

 

 

 

So only Harrier has it and Hornet with that Qualification mission. 

 

 

Can be seen that by default the air refueling is not to be trained. 

 

Okay, but looking above it looks like a practice mission - not a training mission. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of teaching you how to do it.

[Fri13]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

Okay, but looking above it looks like a practice mission - not a training mission. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of teaching you how to do it.

 

Ah, yes you are totally correct. It was in just a normal mission folder.

Here is from a Training menu:

 

 

All the other three short versions skips the introduction and covers only AAR part.

Don't know what they really do, but as far I know, the "Silver Dragon" is responsible for these and should be OK. 

 

 

[CobaltUK]

Why can`t this or any other request be made within the wish list without rabid, kill the idea at all costs  interjection by the same as always players who feel that since they have the hardware, the time, the steady hands and perhaps a complex its their right and perhaps they feel their DUTY ! to shout it down.

 

There are at least 2 of the anti`s here that did not even properly read and absorb the OP.  Seem to think there was mention of a considerable membership. Blind and  . ?

 

Its up to ED and whilst suggestions of how it might be achieved are potentially useful the rest is not.

[cfrag]

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not a “problem” that the sim is difficult.

 

Yes it is, and anyone who works in the business can tell you why: because you cut off your potential market. You are not utilizing the full benefits that make simulation so powerful, versatile and superior. It's bad game design, and customers punish this by lower sales. As a game publisher, and company, it's your best interest to apeal to as many potential customers as possible.

 

Good design allows you to scale, to cater to as many potential customers as possible. I want ED to succeed, to sell as many modules as possible, and that only works by attracting more than just the hardcore crowd. Especially if - as pointed out multiple times - it can be done without compromising the 'real deal'.

 

 

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s the whole point of a realistic sim title.

 

No it's not. The point of a sim is to take advantage of the technology and create a new opportunities and and accessibility slope - when possible - to allow people things that are impossible in RL. Unthinkingly re-creating reality and foregoing technological possibilities are the hallmarks of bad sim design. Realism does neither equate difficulty nor quality of simulation. Artificial or unnecessary difficulty are usually not pathways to success in games. "People often mistake complexity for sophistication" - good design allows complexity as a user's choice. 

 

42 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The “problem” is that people won’t practice it and then expect the game to fly the plane for them. 

 

That is your personal opinion; an assertion. Mayhaps you can learn that there is not just one definition of what constitutes fun. It's a game. Let's look at it this way: Are you wearing gloves while flying? No? Why not? How about wearing a flight suit with diapers? Are you buckled in? Do you occasionally pause to go to the lavatory? These are all optional, and they are some of the great things about simming: they are allowed! This concept goes much further than mere physical comfort while running a sim. But I'm sure you know all this already. Do you perhaps feel that your own accomplishments would fee cheapened when other can cheat their way to do the same? Don't - your achievements are your own.

 

[sthompson]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I can tell by the discussion most people haven’t even tried or think it’s impossible.

That's a ridiculous statement. (I would use stronger language but for forum decorum.) You have no idea whether or how much others have tried, as you have showed repeatedly discussing this topic. You just believe it's true, and refuse to accept it when others say it isn't their experience.

[SharpeXB]

50 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

No, the F/A-18C doesn't have a training mission for AAR -

Ok you mean “training” mission. I mean “practice” mission. Honestly what people need is practice. The “training” aspect of it, which buttons to press or whatever is pretty minor. There’s no training mission necessary or even practical for that. There are YouTube videos galore on what you’re supposed to do. It’s the doing it yourself part that’s challenging. And the only thing you can or should do it put a lot of practice time into it. 

26 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Okay, but looking above it looks like a practice mission - not a training mission. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of teaching you how to do it.

The game can’t teach you how to do this. You need to just practice. 

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Ok you mean “training” mission. I mean “practice” mission. Honestly what people need is practice. The “training” aspect of it, which buttons to press or whatever is pretty minor. There’s no training mission necessary or even practical for that.

Guess what massively improves the effectiveness of practice? Guess what makes practice practical? The proper tools to do training. You manage once again, as always, to wilfully ignore what has been stated very clearly from the start just so you can stomp your feet about how DCS should be maintained as a much worse game than it could be, only to end up demonstrating the exact opposite of what you're arguing and proving your opponent right in every way.

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There are YouTube videos galore on what you’re supposed to do.

...and if you think that's a viable alternative, then you've only managed to prove what a boon it would be if DCS could do it too.

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The game can’t teach you how to do this.

Of course it can. You just refuse to accept this obvious and well-explained fact because.

No reason.

Just because.

[SharpeXB]

14 minutes ago, cfrag said:

 

Yes it is, and anyone who works in the business can tell you why: because you cut off your potential market.

Realism and therefore difficulty and challenge is what players want and expect from a sim title like this. If it gets watered down too much it really affects the perception of the sim as being inauthentic. Note how MAC is being created as an “easy mode” for DCS and the Game Mode is being discontinued for the full systems aircraft. The type of player who wants easy gamey mode doesn’t buy DCS. 
 

AAR isn’t as difficult as many other games are. It’s not as hard a competitive FPS gaming. And racing sims are WAY more difficult. Seriously if you think AAR is hard, try sim racing. A race is like a 40 minute long AAR session with even less room for error. And I don’t see any hardcore racing sims running easy mode where the car drives itself. 

[Tippis]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Realism and therefore difficulty and challenge is what players want and expect from a sim title like this

So why are you arguing against an option that would provide players with more realism, difficulty, and challenge?

 

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Seriously if you think AAR is hard, try sim racing.

You mean those games that offer exactly the kind of helpers and training functions that DCS lack? Yes, they make those quite a lot more user- and newbie friendly than this game. Sorry, what was your point again?

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Realism and therefore difficulty and challenge is what players want and expect from a sim title like this.

It's rather strange to see you write this when the overwhelming majority here tell you - "NO". You certainly seem to want and expect that, which is OK. Your resistance to this idea in face of the fact that the proposed solution it completely without impact to you is indeed puzzling. 

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, sthompson said:

That's a ridiculous statement. 

Sorry but I can tell who’s actually done this and who hasn’t really tried by the nature of the responses. 
Also it’s clear many players in DCS aren’t even familiar with gaming itself and think games are supposed to be easy. All games are difficult, probably even Farming Simulator. Again I’ll bring up racing sims. If you think this is hard, try one of those. 
It’s a whole multi page rambling where people are requesting a help feature for something they’ve never tried to put any effort into. They haven’t even played DCS enough to know that, disregarding mil power, you can fly across an entire map in the F-18 without refueling. 

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, cfrag said:

It's rather strange to see you write this when the overwhelming majority here tell you - "NO". 

Generally speaking, on this wish list, the people who reply to a thread are in agreement with whatever it is. Like if I stared one asking for dinosaurs carrying laser guns a bunch of people would all be agreeing that it was a great idea. 
The flight sim market, for whatever reason is all solidly into hardcore style games. Arcade flying games are generally a flop except this one mysteriously successful play for free Bore Blunder...

But look at what happened to Microsoft Flight. Or do you see any DCS servers running Game Mode style? No. And if somebody likes that style of game they’re going to get Ace Combat, not DCS.

Edited March 25, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Fri13]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sorry but I can tell who’s actually done this and who hasn’t really tried by the nature of the responses. 

 

Okay, list the names to two categories.

 

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Also it’s clear many players in DCS aren’t even familiar with gaming itself and think games are supposed to be easy. 

 

Interesting argument.... Based to what?

 

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

All games are difficult, probably even Farming Simulator. Again I’ll bring up racing sims. If you think this is hard, try one of those.

 

Again, ignore as much want but your argument is already shown false.

 

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s a whole multi page rambling where people are requesting a help feature for something they’ve never tried to put any effort into.

 

Did you read OP?

 

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They haven’t even played DCS enough to know that, disregarding mil power, you can fly across an entire map in the F-18 without refueling. 

 

Ah... So we can remove them the air refueling mechanics as they don't matter because you can fly entire map across without refueling....

 

 

[Tippis]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sorry but I can tell who’s actually done this and who hasn’t really tried by the nature of the responses. 

You really can't. That's just you making baseless assumptions that further pile on to the utter uselessness of your strawman and ad-hominem fallacies and which therefore in turn only further prove beyond any doubt that you don't have any actual argument.

 

 

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Also it’s clear many players in DCS aren’t even familiar with gaming itself and think games are supposed to be easy. All games are difficult, probably even Farming Simulator. Again I’ll bring up racing sims. If you think this is hard, try one of those. 

As was amply proven when you first tried this, the actual facts of the gaming genre prove you wrong. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with racing sims before exposing your ignorance like this. Same goes for anything you say about other simulators, since just about everything you say about those is contrary to facts too, and now we've even come to the scheduled part of the thread where you admit that you don't actually know about the games you're using for your illustrations.

 

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s a whole multi page rambling

No. But feel free to actually read the thread and respond to the arguments rather than trolling and making assumptions about what is said. We know from earlier threads that you won't since you don't actually stand a chance to articulate an argument when you have to stick to reality.

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Arcade flying games are generally a flop

Prove it. Use facts, not random BS you've just made up because you have nothing that supports your stance.

[sthompson]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sorry but I can tell who’s actually done this and who hasn’t really tried by the nature of the responses. 

Please tell us how you can tell. Specific examples please.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, sthompson said:

Please tell us how you can tell. Specific examples please.

If somebody thinks the game can teach them how. 
If somebody thinks it’s mandatory for every flight. 
If they think it requires special hardware. Ok something other than flying with a keyboard is required...

Or if they think it’s just an impossible skill.
 

That’s not abnormal. I think anyone after their first attempt will firmly believe all the above. But after you get it you’ll realize that’s all wrong. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If somebody thinks the game can teach them how. 

It has already been explained to you how. You have been unable to refute this, and just restating the same disproven nonsense doesn't suddenly make you right.

Oh, and it tells you nothing about the person - that's just your fallacies and prejudices talking.

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If somebody thinks it’s mandatory for every flight. 

No-one has stated anything of the kind. It's just something you made up because you were unable to refute what people were saying.

Oh, and it tells you nothing about the person - that's just your fallacies and prejudices talking.

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If they think it requires special hardware.

No-one has stated anything of the kind.

Oh, and it tells you nothing about the person - that's just your fallacies and prejudices talking.

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Or if they think it’s just an impossible skill.

No-one has stated anything of the kind.

Oh, and guess what? It tells you nothing about the person - that's just your fallacies and prejudices talking.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that you have no ground to stand on. Everything you say has been disproven or shown to be some strawman you've erected because you have no argument. You have not been able to actually address any of the points, illustrations, examples, explanations, or reasons why this kind of thing would be beneficial to everyone (even you). If anything, your counterfactual flailing has only ever managed to provide additional illustrations or examples contrary to your stated position.

 

Just accept it. You have no argument.

[sthompson]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If somebody thinks the game can teach them how. 
If somebody thinks it’s mandatory for every flight. 
If they think it requires special hardware. Ok something other than flying with a keyboard is required...

OK. I don't know whether the game could teach me how to do AAR (which is off topic from the OP's request for easier AAR). I won't have any information about whether such teaching works until the game tries to teach me, and as has been pointed out there currently are no assists or training missions in the game, and thus there is no actual information available about what might be possible--only beliefs.

 

I do not believe AAR is mandatory for every flight, but I would like to use it in the flights for which it makes sense. (Unlimited fuel doesn't really make sense for any flight in my view.)

 

I'm not sure if AAR requires special hardware. I've heard mixed opinions on that, but the only direct evidence I have is with my own CH Fighterstick and Pro throttle, and I don't know exactly what line you have in mind between special and not-special hardware.

 

Now that I've given you explicit information about how my views line up with your criteria, please tell me (a) how many hours I've practiced AAR in the Hornet, and (b) how many more hours I need to practice before I've "really tried?" Numbers please.

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, sthompson said:

Now that I've given you explicit information about how my views line up with your criteria, please tell me (a) how many hours I've practiced AAR in the Hornet, and (b) how many more hours I need to practice before I've "really tried?" Numbers please.

I couldn’t tell how many hours. I can just tell if you’ve got it or not. If you’ve got it you’ll know the game couldn’t teach you how. It took me maybe two weeks to get it on my first aircraft, the A-10C but it gets easier since the skill transfers to other planes. The Hornet took me about three or four attempts. 

1 hour ago, sthompson said:

I won't have any information about whether such teaching works until the game tries to teach me, and as has been pointed out there currently are no assists or training missions in the game, and thus there is no actual information available about what might be possible--only beliefs.

DCS couldn’t teach you how to do this anymore than a racing sim could teach you how to enter a corner. You can watch all the instruction on it an apply it but it’s just something you need to practice yourself. The game can’t literally hold your hand. 

[Tippis]

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I couldn’t tell how many hours. I can just tell if you’ve got it or not. If you’ve got it you’ll know the game couldn’t teach you how.

So you couldn't actually tell anything at all from that because let me tell you this: as someone who's got it, and who has seen a bunch of different solutions in play, it can most certainly be taught by the game. Trivially. The same way everything else can be taught by the game.

 

But only if the tools are available, and you don't want people to learn for some unexplained reason. You just argue from ignorance that it can't be done, which is more a statement of the fact that you don't know how to teach it. Please don't presume that others suffer from the same deficiency.

 

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

DCS couldn’t teach you how to do this anymore than a racing sim could teach you how to enter a corner.

In other words, DCS can teach it to you just fine since racing sims have no problems at all teaching that. They even have all kinds of tools and helpers to… well… help with the teaching. Just because you never found them (or, quite likely per your previous descriptions, haven't actually played any racing sims in a great while) doesn't mean they don't exist or it can't be done.

 

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can watch all the instruction on it an apply it but it’s just something you need to practice yourself. The game can’t literally hold your hand. 

The only reason the game literally can't do that is because the game has no hands to hold yours with. But figuratively speaking, it certainly can, same as with your precious (yet wholly unfamiliar) racing sims.

 

You really love taking this whole argument from ignorance fallacy to the very extreme, especially when you have been proven so thoroughly wrong, as if somehow doubling down on ignorance will somehow make it underflow and flip over to positive value like some half-century old pinball game.

[Jackjack171]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not a “problem” that the sim is difficult. That’s the whole point of a realistic sim title. The “problem” is that people won’t practice it and then expect the game to fly the plane for them. 
 

If and when you guys finally learn to do this you’ll see how silly this argument is. I can tell by the discussion most people haven’t even tried or think it’s impossible. It only seems impossible until you get it. Spend as much time on this as you spend making stuff go boom and you’ll get it in no time. 

Thank you! Been saying this for a while! Oh well!

[Fri13]

59 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

DCS couldn’t teach you how to do this anymore than a racing sim could teach you how to enter a corner. You can watch all the instruction on it an apply it but it’s just something you need to practice yourself. The game can’t literally hold your hand. 

 

Have you really ever played any of those my mentioned racing games? They literally teach you those things by hand! From the starting line to the finish line. From corners to pit stops....

In some of them the game can basically require you almost just to give gas or not and it does braking and turns and all for you!

 

Because those games are teaching beginners to learn from the basics all the way to the experts levels where they don't anymore need to be assisted. But to reach all that, it is far far easier with the assisting features that keeps them fun and speeds up the learning curve until the player is ready to start ease with the assisting features and turn them off.

 

In DCS there are no such assisting features that racing games offer, that you so completely ignore and claim otherwise than proven! Your argument is against the facts, and they are not an argument anymore but your stubbornness.  

[Jackjack171]

Perhaps the OP should lobby for more training missions IRT AAR instead of "training wheels"! IJS

Edited March 25, 2021 by Jackjack171

[Tippis]

22 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

Perhaps the OP should lobby for more training missions IRT AAR instead of "training wheels"! IJS

Can't really have one without the other.

There's a reason why training wheels exist and why they're called that, after all…

Edited March 25, 2021 by Tippis