64 bit question

[upyr1]

how will DCS run on the 64 bit versions of windows?

[Koriel]

I'd like to know that as well, just getting a new rig with 8G of RAM, and want to pult it too good use, have a copy of vista utimate 64x ready..

[Duke49th]

I think-I HOPE- it will run properly on Win XP/VISTA x64:huh:

 

I have Win xp x64....and I will not change my system.

[159th_Viper]

Having specific regard to LockOn/DCS, what advantage, if any, is gained from XP x64 as opposed to XP x32?

[predaeus]

159th_Viper, 64 bit operating systems usually can support more RAM (32bit ones are often limited below 4 GB).

[PoleCat]

Having specific regard to LockOn/DCS, what advantage, if any, is gained from XP x64 as opposed to XP x32?

 

Short answer, none AFAIK where LO is concerned.

 

Out

[upyr1]

Having specific regard to LockOn/DCS, what advantage, if any, is gained from XP x64 as opposed to XP x32?

more ram i don't know enough about the arcutecure when running a 32 bit program but at best I could see a system with 8 gigs resulting in LOMAC or Black shark getting 4 gigs dedicated to it and the ssytem taking up the rest. worst case it jsut won't work would rather have some one who's knows for sure what the story is about 64 bit systems then just specualte about it.

[Kuky]

For the short time I had Vista Ultimate 64bit installed I could not tell any performance difference compared to XP Pro. Extra RAM that you can use makes no difference as game itself (with OS) doesn't even use 2GB or RAM.

 

I would like to know though does BlackShark still have that loud engine sound issue in Vista? Beside the buggy engine sound, only lack of V-sync is what makes me stay with XP pro and away from Vista 64bit.

[Groove]

DCS:BS is a 32 bit application and so you wont get a benefit from running it on a 64 bit OS.

[crazysundog]

DCS:BS is a 32 bit application and so you wont get a benefit from running it on a 64 bit OS.

 

And how about the new engine?? Will it be a 32 bit application as well? Curious myself because i'm building a gaming computer around this game...

[-Skipper-]

DCS:BS is a 32 bit application and so you wont get a benefit from running it on a 64 bit OS.

 

The program will not, but the Operating System will!

 

A 32bit-system has a physical limit of memory addresses, so it can barely use up to 4Gig - that leaves you 3.25 to 3.5 for your programs, the rest is eaten up by windows.

 

A 64bit system can support an aquivalent of 17.2 billion gigabyte theoretically. This is limited by hardware and software, though, which runs as "64bit", but commonly is only 40bit or less. Nevertheless a 64bit Windows can address a theoretical swapfile of 512 Terrabyte and 64bit Vista supports up to 128Gig of RAM, AFAIK.

 

So, while the 32bit program itself will not benefit from the 64bit processes largely, the operating system will and it leaves more resources for the game and the other programs running (TS, TrackIR, Hyperlobby, etc). Loading times from 2Gig to 4Gig on both, my XP32 and Vista64bit decreased drastically, but when running, the 64bit system has much less loading stutters and a better overall usage of my Dual-Core-CPU, though the program itself cannot benefit from that either.

[Duke49th]

DCS:BS is a 32 bit application....

 

Are ED planning to "upgrade" it to 64bit(or add a 64bit .exe) anytime in the (not so far:)) future?

[Groove]

Well, 32 bit applications can allocate a certain amount of memory, even you with 512 Terabyte of RAM in your PC. Im running Vista Ultimate 32 bit with 4 GB of RAM. Even my Vista can use just 3.x GB of RAM there is no big gain ( if at all ) using a 64 bit OS as long as the main application you want to run on it isnt native 64 bit.

 

 

 

The program will not, but the Operating System will!

 

A 32bit-system has a physical limit of memory addresses, so it can barely use up to 4Gig - that leaves you 3.25 to 3.5 for your programs, the rest is eaten up by windows.

 

A 64bit system can support an aquivalent of 17.2 billion gigabyte theoretically. This is limited by hardware and software, though, which runs as "64bit", but commonly is only 40bit or less. Nevertheless a 64bit Windows can address a theoretical swapfile of 512 Terrabyte and 64bit Vista supports up to 128Gig of RAM, AFAIK.

 

So, while the 32bit program itself will not benefit from the 64bit processes largely, the operating system will and it leaves more resources for the game and the other programs running (TS, TrackIR, Hyperlobby, etc). Loading times from 2Gig to 4Gig on both, my XP32 and Vista64bit decreased drastically, but when running, the 64bit system has much less loading stutters and a better overall usage of my Dual-Core-CPU, though the program itself cannot benefit from that either.

[Groove]

Are ED planning to "upgrade" it to 64bit(or add a 64bit .exe) anytime in the (not so far:)) future?

 

Hopefully, although my personal view on this matter is that as long as the installed gamers base dont use 64 bit Operating Systems its not worth the money to develope a 64 bit version of _any_ game.

[-Skipper-]

Well, 32 bit applications can allocate a certain amount of memory, even you with 512 Terabyte of RAM in your PC. Im running Vista Ultimate 32 bit with 4 GB of RAM. Even my Vista can use just 3.x GB of RAM there is no big gain ( if at all ) using a 64 bit OS as long as the main application you want to run on it isnt native 64 bit.

 

Vista 32 can use the same ammount of memory XP32 can, but Vista uses more memory than XP, so you will rather have a disadvantage with Vista compared to XP32, when running 4Gig.

 

If you use a 64bit system, however, it usually automatically accesses the upper memory parts for 64bit applications, leaving more or less the full range of 32bit adressable memory for 32bit applications.

 

So for 32bit you have 3.5 Gig -250MB for XP or approximately 350-400MB for Vista, leaving about 3 Gig usable for 32bit applications.

With 64bit you have 4 Gig - 250MB for XP64 or about 400MB for Vista64, which leaves 3.6 Gig for 64 bit applications, 3.5 for 32bit applications.

 

Not much, but a notable difference with high-end-games like Crysis, COD4, etc and it does have an effect on LockOn, too. (Infact even IL2 runs much smoother with my Vista)

[Groove]

So for 32bit you have 3.5 Gig -250MB for XP or approximately 350-400MB for Vista, leaving about 3 Gig usable for 32bit applications.

 

With 64bit you have 4 Gig - 250MB for XP64 or about 400MB for Vista64, which leaves 3.6 Gig for 64 bit applications, 3.5 for 32bit applications.

 

Afaik the maximum RAM a 32 bit application can allocate / use is 2.4 GB of RAM. Although im not 100 % sure about the exact amount right now. Its for sure way below 3 GB.

[-Skipper-]

Afaik the maximum RAM a 32 bit application can allocate / use is 2.4 GB of RAM. Although im not 100 % sure about the exact amount right now. Its for sure way below 3 GB.

 

That's partially correct. On a 32bit system, most 32bit applications can use a maximum of 2 Gig of RAM, if not manually stated otherwise in the boot.ini. Then it starts using the swap-file. Another way to get around this are various options in the windows-registry and disableing the Swap-file, which forces Windows to use up all memory. It works for some games, but if you don't have memory cleaning or unloading unused dlls enabled, your program will sooner or later crash or your Windows will. Photoshop, for example, doesn't like this setting at all.

 

That limit is not used for 64bit Operating Systems, though, as they were developed for systems with larger ammounts of RAM, so it makes no sense to put up a virtual limit.

[ZaltysZ]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx

[-Skipper-]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx

 

Good link, thanks!

 

The "IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE"-Setting is also nicknamed the 3Gig-Switch, btw. ;)

 

 

Note that several modern applications run with this setting by default (e.g. Maya6.5+)

 

 

Also note, that this limit is only true for the application itself, not windows or the paged pool, as shown in the table.

Edited September 8, 2008 by -Skipper-

[Duke49th]

Not much, but a notable difference with high-end-games like Crysis, COD4, etc and it does have an effect on LockOn, too. (Infact even IL2 runs much smoother with my Vista)

 

As Groove said, 32bit .exe uses around 2 Gb Ram. 64bit .exe uses up to 7-8Tb Ram :)

 

Crysis have a 32 bit AND a 64 bit .exe You can choose which one you want to start. To start the 64bit .exe you need a 64bit OS.

 

Don't know what kind of .exe COD4 use. But if it hasn't a 64bit .exe it is still limited to ~2 Gb.

 

If you are using Vista x64 and have much Programms/services running. It is useful to have 4Gb Ram or more, even the 32bit .exe of a Game is not able to use more than ~2 Gb of Ram.

 

The reason why I have XP x64 is because of my Soundcard won't work with OpenFalcon in 32bit.:(

 

 

And what I noticed, If you have an 64bit .exe, the overall Performance of the application is a bit better then 32bit. Even if you have only 2Gb Ram installed in your PC.(I noticed this in Halflife2, Farcry with 64bit Patch and Crysis Demo)

 

I think, if I remember correctly, it has something to do with the ability of the (GFX and so on)driver to work better/faster with 64bit OS. But this is what I read from AMD and/or Microsoft Articles about 64bit tech. Not sure if it is correct.

 

 

So, it is better to have a 64bit .exe even when the application doesn't need or benefit from more than 2 Gb Ram.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Duke49th
Oh dear my crappy english :)

[-Skipper-]

As Groove said, 32bit .exe uses around 2 Gb Ram. 64bit .exe uses up to 7-8Tb Ram :)

 

Crysis have a 32 bit AND a 64 bit .exe You can choose which one you want to start. To start the 64bit .exe you need a 64bit OS.

 

Don't know what kind of .exe COD4 use. But if it hasn't a 64bit .exe it is still limited to ~2 Gb.

 

If you are using Vista x64 and have much Programms/services running. It is useful to have 4Gb Ram or more, even the 32bit .exe of a Game is not able to use more than ~2 Gb of Ram.

 

The reason why I have XP x64 is because of my Soundcard won't work with OpenFalcon in 32bit.:(

 

 

And what I noticed, If you have an 64bit .exe, the overall Performance of the application is a bit better then 32bit. Even if you have only 2Gb Ram installed in your PC.

I think, if I remember correctly, it has something to do with the ability of the (GFX and so on)driver to work better/faster with 64bit OS.

 

 

So, it is better to have a 64bit .exe even when the application doesn't need or benefit from more than 2 Gb Ram.

 

But this is all what I read from AMD and Microsoft Articles about 64bit tech. Not sure if all is correct.

 

At least it corresponds with what I read. Also note that the limit of 2 Gig is PER application, it seems. The 3Gig-switch is also highly riskful to use, as it limits the ability for windows to upload drivers and needed services and may result in crashes, while the programs may not even benefit from it.

AFAIK the 2Gig-Max-Rule is also not general. I just read through some articles on the topic and it seems that Windows reserves half the RAM for itself as a general rule. So to use full 4Gig of RAM for a single application (apparently even for 32bit applications), you need 8 Gig of physical RAM and a 64bit System.

 

And for all those who are trying to implement the settings in their boot.ini's: Safe your time. The option to use 3Gig of RAM by using the "switch" has been deactivated in XP with SP2 and is disabled for Vista, too, as it seems.

[Duke49th]

Mmhh...for what I read is; Windows Vista is always saving the half(or at least much of it) of the installed Ram for itself. But if an application need that Ram, Windows free it and the application can use it.

 

 

P.s.: Yes, the 2Gb limitation is per application.

[upyr1]

DCS:BS is a 32 bit application and so you wont get a benefit from running it on a 64 bit OS.

 

hi,

I know it is a 32 bit application- however part o this question is how do the 64 bit versions of Windows run 32 bit aplications?

Lets say a 64 bista system has 12 GB of RAM what will happen when they load Blackshark or any other 32 bit program?

 

1. load the progam with in the first 4GB of ram meaning your stuck with 2 GB of free ram or so and have to paly around with freeing up memory like in the old days of DOS.

or

2. The system places the application in the 11 GB of free RAM trying to give it a full 4 GB of RAM to use

[Duke49th]

hi,

I know it is a 32 bit application- however part o this question is how do the 64 bit versions of Windows run 32 bit aplications?

Lets say a 64 bista system has 12 GB of RAM what will happen when they load Blackshark or any other 32 bit program?

 

1. load the progam with in the first 4GB of ram meaning your stuck with 2 GB of free ram or so and have to paly around with freeing up memory like in the old days of DOS.

or

2. The system places the application in the 11 GB of free RAM trying to give it a full 4 GB of RAM to use

 

The 32bit application will still use maximum 2Gb Ram. No matter how much is installed. And no matter if OS is 32bit or 64bit.

 

You have for Example 12Gb Ram. The application uses and need 2Gb Ram>you have 10Gb left for other application.

 

edit: There is no "first 4gb of Ram". When you have 12Gb Ram, then you have 12Gb Ram. Windows x64 will not start an Windows 32bit Emulation and reserve's 4Gb Ram. It will start the 32bit Application in a kind of "compatibility" Mode.

 

 

edit2:

Although most software can run in a 32-bit compatibility mode (also known as an emulation mode, e.g. Microsoft WoW64 Technology for IA64) or run in 32-bit mode natively (on AMD64), it is usually impossible to run a driver (or similar software) in that mode since such a program usually runs in between the OS and the hardware, where direct emulation cannot be employed.

 

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit

 

Also read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WoW64

Edited September 8, 2008 by Duke49th

[ZaltysZ]

32-bit XP can give maximum of 2GB per process by default, and 3GB per process with 3GB switch. However, XP by itself is limited to maximum of 4GB memory (some part of this is not available due overlapping with device addresses).

 

32-bit Windows Server 2003 can use PAE (Physical Address Extension) and allow more than 4GB of memory. Also, if drivers are written correctly, memory aren't affected by device addresses. For example Creative X-Fi drivers aren't aware of PAE, so card won't work with it on very well. Default memory limits per process is the same as for XP (2GB). 3GB switch works too.

 

Additionally, there is such thing as AWE (Address Windowing Extensions), which lets an application to use more than 2GB (3GB) of memory. It uses "window" concept: maps available address space to the needed physical memory. If it needs access to other location of physical memory, it remaps that "window" and so on. However, at one time it still can't have access to more than 2GB (3GB) of memory. This API is mainly used for scientific software or DBs.

 

Back to games. 32-bit games can't theoretically use more than 3GBs and practically more than 2GBs. if you are building computer for gaming, 4GB of RAM and 64 bit OS would be sufficient as 64-bit games are rare (for now).

Edited September 8, 2008 by ZaltysZ