DCS: F-14A & B - Excessive shimmering in Cockpit

[Schmidtfire]

As the title suggests. I have issues with flickering/shimmering in the Tomcat cockpit. Worst offenders is the ACM panel and around many of the gauges. Love the textures and artwork, but compared to other modules it's very distracting and  brings down the overall visual quality.
Running at 3440x1440 with 2xMSAA and 4xAF, the level of shimmering is way above what I see in other modules.

Hope that this can be improved in some way.

 

Thx!
 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Schmidtfire

[Skysurfer]

Set AF to 16x - there is no reason not to.

[Schmidtfire]

Thanks for the advice, set my AF to 16x.

Looking at a few tutorials and gamplay videos online I see the same shimmering issues. Youtube compression hides it a bit, but it is there.
So it is something that everyone suffer from (at least on 2xMSAA)

After some investigation I think I have found the cause of the shimmering! Thin, brigther lines (wear and tear around VDI bezels, instrument buttons etc) together
with cockpit shake. Amazing detail and artwork, but in motion it becomes an issue. So I guess it's hard to do anything about it without @Cobra847 changing the artwork to have less details around thin edges.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Schmidtfire

[Skysurfer]

Have you tried MSAA x4? MSAA shouldn't have too big of an impact on performance. Personally I don't see any shimering on my end - what is your texture setting?

[Schmidtfire]

1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

Have you tried MSAA x4? MSAA shouldn't have too big of an impact on performance. Personally I don't see any shimering on my end - what is your texture setting?

Textures set to High. MSAA has a really big impact on performance in DCS. It has to do with Deferred shading and cannot be compared to running MSAA in other games.
ED in many cases recommends that it be turned off completely.

Im pretty sure you have shimmering on your end aswell, you are just not noticing it for some reason.  It's very visible in videos.
Look at all the thin lines shimmering and flickering around the cockpit: 
 

 

[Skysurfer]

I would have to specifically look for that next time but it hasn't caught my attention so far. I also run 4x MSAA and it runs just fine. No reason not to on a modern system.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Skysurfer

[draconus]

16 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

Hope that this can be improved in some way.

Any idea what would that be? I'd say welcome to computer gaming - you can only set what DCS and driver give you.

[Schmidtfire]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Any idea what would that be? I'd say welcome to computer gaming - you can only set what DCS and driver give you.

My conclusion is that artwork tweaks might mitigate this issue.

It's the really fine hand painted texture work around thin edges that starts to shimmer/flicker a lot when engines are running and cockpit is shaking.
Again, this is most prominent in the F-14 and to some degree in the AJS-37 and C-101.    

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

12 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

MSAA has a really big impact on performance in DCS. It has to do with Deferred shading

Yes: there have been some excellent reports about how MSAA and deferred shading are essentially incompatible, back when we had DCS 2.0 Alpha.

Whomever says MSAA doesn't have a big impact likely never tried VR.

 

About the shimmering: yes it's present but I'd say that's more of a DCS issue. The Hornet has the worst shimmering because of how many "lines" there are in the cockpit (I don't know how else to describe it): the UFC shimmers, the MFDs shimmer, ... I mean, the FCS page looks like an oscilloscope as soon as you move your head slightly...
In the Falcon only the edges of the round buttons on top of the UFC shimmer, the rest is mostly fine. From my point of view, the Tomcat has some of the least shimmering.

[Schmidtfire]

I agree that it is also a DCS issue, my point is that it CAN be mitigated and suppressed by careful artwork.

Texture detailing has to be tuned to the DCS graphics engine to lessen the effect as much as possible. Why accentuate
thin 3D-model lines by putting wear and tear texturing along the edges? The "lived in" Tomcat cockpit looks great, 
my only suggestion is to dampen or remove some texture detail around edges.

If we had access to a "factory fresh" cockpit mod for F-14, it would be interesting to see the difference. Im pretty sure it would
be a major improvement as far as removing shimmering and flicker.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Schmidtfire

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

I agree that it is also a DCS issue, my point is that it CAN be mitigated and suppressed by careful artwork

If you say so it should be possible to change some cockpit textures (or ask some modder) to test it.

[westr]

I find this issue very prominent in VR with the F14 compared to other modules, does anyone feel there is a cockpit mod that improves this issue for the Tomcat in VR? 

[draconus]

11 hours ago, westr said:

...does anyone feel there is a cockpit mod that improves this issue for the Tomcat in VR? 

No, you need supersampling.

[RustBelt]

Is it sad that $1500 40x0 cards with 12 GB of VRAM; that Anti-Aliasing is still a thing that has to be fiddled with? 
 

Nvidia has become an AI hardware developer and AMD can only follow not innovate. 

[draconus]

3 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Is it sad that $1500 40x0 cards with 12 GB of VRAM; that Anti-Aliasing is still a thing that has to be fiddled with?

Nothing changed - as always you have to balance between quality and performance in cases of lack of computing power. It's not the fault of DCS or HB that they provide best graphics possible and use as much from gfx cards as able. Neither is it users' fault for wanting to use highest res headsets and monitors.

[RustBelt]

I’m frankly tired of it. The card knows the system. Instead of faking AA with AI, the cards should be deploying AI min/maxing strategies to automatically find a given systems perfect balance point. 
 

For the price of two game consoles, the card really should be better able to optimize itself. 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, RustBelt said:

find a given systems perfect balance point

It doesn't exist because it's different for all users, that's why options exist instead.

If you don't want to/don't know how/don't care you buy whatever you think your wallet can handle and use some gfx preset - done.

[RustBelt]

I mean, I’ve been on the video card train since CGA. For the price they’re asking now, “Just Get Gud” doesn’t cut it anymore. I’ve understood it with 3D addon cards, and been patient with it since 3D SVGA cards in the 90’s.

Consumers need to start expecting more especially in 4 figure territory. It’s time we get to be lazy, not the Card manufacturers.

[lunaticfringe]

It has nothing to do with getting gud, and everything to do with user preferences.  Somebody running a 144hz monitor may want all of the frames, image quality and visual draw distance be ****ed.  Somebody else using the same monitor wants all the visual treats and extreme draw, and accepts a framerate in the 40s-60s using smart refresh techniques.  And the terms change for every individual user based on personal preference and system capability.  Under what terms is it the card maker's responsibility- or right, to restrict users to a specific experience based on what they think is best? 

This isn't Apple ecosystem.  

Edited April 4, 2023 by lunaticfringe

[RustBelt]

Except, what most people get is some not quite right. All the card and the driver has to do is take user feedback and adjust given all the facts it has at its disposal given It knows everything the OS knows about the system. 
 

If Nvidia spent half as much time on that, UX, than on Mediocre Real time ray tracing, and AI cores for Crypto mining, we could be somewhere. At $200 sure we’ll figure it out ourselves, $500 yea ok, $900….yea it’s kinda sad, $1500? That card better make my breakfast. Or it better just be able to 4x SSAA without a hiccup at 4k and 120FPS all day no hassle no hours of trial and error. Not melt its own power connectors and take up 3 slots to deliver a slightly better RTX 20X0 performance. And then act like it’s doing me a favor letting me pay for it.

PC gaming consumers need to up their standards to meet the prices hardware makers think they can charge. 
 

This isn’t about Closed ecosystems in Mac or Console (which are just fixed spec x86 architecture now) it about the level of in the weeds DIY they still get away with for $1500. Expect more from your money.

[lunaticfringe]

This isn't the farm with the windmill you want to tilt at, de Cervantes. 

[draconus]

6 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Expect more from your money.

Supply and demand law sets the prices, vote with your wallet and you manage your expectations about 8k @120fps - tech doesn't advance that fast.

Edited April 5, 2023 by draconus

[RustBelt]

Not when it’s too busy filling Crypto Wallets it won’t

12 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

This isn't the farm with the windmill you want to tilt at, de Cervantes. 

Why? Big Video Card going to come shut me up? 

[lunaticfringe]

6 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Why? Big Video Card going to come shut me up? 

Do you walk into a liquor store and complain they don't sell prime rib, how the National Cattlemen's Beef Association are running a scam through the sale of brisket because it's a slow process to cook properly and some people just don't have time for that- and that consumers need to demand more from their butchers than market rate pricing? 

nVidia and AMD both have websites to take your complaints on their products, as well as your suggestions on what you think they should be doing.  I'm sure they'd enjoy hearing your expertise on the subject. 

[RustBelt]

I do walk into a liquor store and complain that half of one wall is garbage flavored Vodka candy booze. And how I can never find Pusser’s Gunpowder Proof Rum. Especially in an open forum liquor store where everyone is together talking about the use and applications of liquor.

Analogies can be hard sometimes.

I don’t mine Bitcoin so Nvidia doesn’t care what I have to say, And AMD couldn’t do anything innovative if they even wanted to, they just aren’t set up for that.

Duopolies mean complaining gets everywhere.