RvE Lockon Realism Mod Release Candidate 4 (Public Beta)

[Pilotasso]

Try it redeagle when we give the goahead for amraams in the server.

Also there is nothing that prevents you from simply disengaging when he goes cold as well.

 

That will make you lose 1 missile each, and flankers have the

same amount as the 15 s ;)

You also have MUCH longer range. I would say this mod probably puts the game

more in favor of the flanker rather than the 15.

 

The amraam is not an impossible missile......You can still outmaneuver it/bleed it/make

it lose lock/notch it/ortho roll it etc etc etc....

Its just that the last second beryoza-jink and magic 2nm barrell roll have much lower chance of working IF the missile has enough energy to follow :P

Also remember he cant all-seeing-maddog or spam you with his amraams. He has a launch delay and only lets him launch when he has a radar lock

The difference, simply speaking, Now you cant just "assume it will pass you doing nothing"

 

Statistically speaking :

In standard 1.12, the amraam is less likely to be affected by chaff than than R-27ER ( you can make statistical tests showing this ).

Thus, chaff reduction alone will perhaps increase its Pk online by 0.1,

However in 1.12 the ER is extremely sensitive to chaff, and by the mod reduction of chaff alone, the ER might gain 0.2, 0.3 Pk (yet to be proven in tests, which will follow!)

 

So what would happen if we didnt improve amraam maneuverability ?

People die by ER while flanker makes barrell roll from 25nm->merge :)

 

Conclusion : Amraam and R77 are already undermodelled for terminal maneuverability compared to semi-actives.

Increase so they are slightly better (which is on par with real data). Make people at least have to do SOMETHING

if beeing fired at...Not just"Oh..he fired a missile, whatever...wait for blink blink blink...one light..ok pull up..done :)"

(myself I can do 8 missiles in a row no problem with this beryoza trick)

This is fun in SP but not really MP imo ;), quote AS : "It makes team tactics with amraams useless against exploiters"

(and I promise you AS is very good in flanker, it's only lately he has been flying the eagle)

 

Another important point is that

The defensive fighter is now really defensive. He cant just come back with a chaff spam and then pickle 4 slammers at you.

If he is defensive, you now have the upper hand. If you play your cards right, and take the initiative early and gain the

tactical advantage, you will also have the chance to use it.

 

the worst problem of the flanker is not the sensitivity to chaff of the ER, you can force the target to make mistakes and dump all his chaff before shooting the last ER. The worst problem is inherent to SARH concept. By shooting you will warn the target of the attack and he will break your lock by truning to one side.

[RvEYoda]

There are tricks to keeping SARH locks close to beam, by for example manually varying

PRF frequency while having a lock (yes possible), and also making suer the target is above

the radar emitter. What is also important to remember is that SARH missiles will actually have a chance

relock the target if he didnt use too much chaff in the beam. (relocking is considerably more likely to

happen now with SARH and less chaff mod)

 

There are more tricks as well

 

But also...remember that if he turns away, you have already denied him entering your airspace.

Any if he does it early, you can easily outmaneuver/barrell a slow amraam. The new stuff is only for

high energy missiles. A slow missile is a weak missile/can't maneuver.

Edited September 22, 2008 by =RvE=Yoda

[A.S]

AIM-120 behaves still like b4 (energy performance) but the "missing in last second with uber-pull" is fixed so you cant barrol roll or exploit dodge it anymore.(same for R-77)

 

You have to dodge it "normal" by breaking lock...bleeding off etc etc etc

 

So what does this mean compared F-15 vs a Su-27 and 27ERs ?

 

With new reduced chaffs and ECM/ECCM logics it means this:

 

You become very very deady in the Su-27 IF youknow how to play out

your advantages against a F-15 using your better performances at range and closure.

Disengagement is an option for both sides and always will be. That s the part if it comes down to Wingman tactics and fromations.

 

You can always abort an attack if given conditions are not right. The trick is to force the bandits to that position where the attack IS right.

(few missiles and maneuvers draw the fight but ONE missile kills)

 

You have a way upper hand in the Su-27 at range and closure if you know how to use your performance advantages for your best.

 

Noone forces you to go headon with a 8x120AIM onboard Eagle if he is just truning and shooting turning and shooting....(if you dont go maverick he will rtb with empty pants)

 

Each Plattform (15 and 27) has its strong and weak points in that situation so you have to know how to use it.

If you fight on different plattforms you have to use that difference.

 

Thats why we talk about E-F-A Poles....Notching....Pince....Drag..Box Posthole......etc etc etc.....DLZ ...PK.......Rmax Rmin....... these are values we fight with....NOT MADDOG or EXPLOITS.

 

Our goal is to make BVR to that what is it should be away from the "tricks" the game unfortunatly provides.

 

IF you want to balance it you can force pilots to use their load more disciplined and strategically...you can say....lets talk about how many missiles and which one each side is allowed to carry.

 

F-15 2xAIM-120 4xAIM-7 few Sidewhiners

Su-27 4xER 2xET

Mig29 2xR-77 2xETorER/ET

 

solutions like this in my opinion is a very nice way to "balance".

 

EDIT: different thinking .....and few stories i have expierienced.....

 

i fly Falcon and Lockon...and i love both !

In Faclon for example your Mission is accomplished if your given or choosen Combat Mission Role (BARCAP, Intercept, SEAD whatever) is fullfilled in a Battle-Environment (online servers or campaign-sinlgeplayer) if you succeeded in doing so and returning

to Base alive. IF you kill someone A2A ....great ..extrapoint....but you Mission is priority.

In Lockon mostly if you join a online server you want to make as many kills as possible, even if you have alot losses and end up with a 1000kills to 800losses stat on one of the stats pages.

(Honestly...how many are reading the briefings if they joing a server..... truly isnt it mostly...HIT FLY FAST kill MUCH fast and be a "hero" often?)

Lockon has way more to provide in terms of gameplay...if we would use it.

 

think about this......

Edited September 22, 2008 by A.S

[RvEYoda]

Very good post by AS

[Geier]

Maybe I'm re-posting, but is it compatible with single?

[RvEYoda]

Maybe I'm re-posting, but is it compatible with single?

 

 

no, it only affects "you", so if you used it, only some features

would be helpful, example : the AI would not drop chaff at takeoff.

[Geier]

Thanks, great job, guys. I want to check it by my own hands))) Now at your server))

[Boneski]

This mod sounds like a bad Idea.. changing things because a group of people "feel" like something is not right or should be made to do X Y Z is a very bad Idea and kills the integrity of the game.

Again.. please note… there is no real publicly available information on missile data.

At the same time this mod is great work just because it shows the skill and talent of its creators...

To change the things that have been changed with this mod will create problems down the line. For years people have been talking about fairness and making things somewhat level. The developers built the game giving it a balance that makes sense..

Mods like this can fracture that balance causing people to have to make a choice on which realism group to follow.

What happens when the Realism group decides they want to change something back and make a change some where else based on what they read out of a book?

Let’s say allowing the R-27's to work like they do using the stock code and change the F-15 control config to allow flaps at a higher G... (BTW, you would be surprised at what the FLCS

will do to keep a jet configured)

Will this new group's mode be a better choice? Or will people just break in to camps and use the mod they like best?

It's not about realism... it’s about personal preference... and that’s fine. No real argument here…

Just observations.

Anyway, good job with the mods and thanks for the support. The community is very appreciative!

This post Cost 2 cents.

[RvEYoda]

Bonesky there is a LOT of real world publicly available TEST result

data on missile aerodynamics. You just have to know where to look.

Most of the stuff is from aircraft manuals and other documents that you

have to buy to acquire.

 

For example Falcon4 missiles are partially based on missile data tests from Nasa

 

And you probably missed the documentation : There is no such problem "who will use what mod", because it's server enforced for those servers that want it!

Edited September 22, 2008 by =RvE=Yoda

[Mustang]

Nice summary above A.S :thumbup:

 

few Sidewhiners

 

LOL!

[graywo1fg]

truely amazing stuff you guys are working on :) i cant even fathom what you would have to do or code to make this work!

Edited September 22, 2008 by graywo1fg

[A.S]

This mod sounds like a bad Idea.. changing things because a group of people "feel" like something is not right or should be made to do X Y Z is a very bad Idea and kills the integrity of the game.

 

Again.. please note… there is no real publicly available information on missile data.

 

 

At the same time this mod is great work just because it shows the skill and talent of its creators...

To change the things that have been changed with this mod will create problems down the line. For years people have been talking about fairness and making things somewhat level. The developers built the game giving it a balance that makes sense..

 

Mods like this can fracture that balance causing people to have to make a choice on which realism group to follow.

 

What happens when the Realism group decides they want to change something back and make a change some where else based on what they read out of a book?

Let’s say allowing the R-27's to work like they do using the stock code and change the F-15 control config to allow flaps at a higher G... (BTW, you would be surprised at what the FLCS

will do to keep a jet configured)

 

Will this new group's mode be a better choice? Or will people just break in to camps and use the mod they like best?

It's not about realism... it’s about personal preference... and that’s fine. No real argument here…

Just observations.

 

Anyway, good job with the mods and thanks for the support. The community is very appreciative!

 

This post Cost 2 cents.

 

This is a legitime point of view and statement. Overall spoken and worth to be considered.

But lil bit too overall missing the details what is changed and why.

Development lives from attempts to improve things and noone can deny the lacks we have.

 

Besides: We dont change the Sim. We just provide THIS environment on our server...... everyone is free to "taste" it or not and give their impressions and suggestions.

 

A Sim will stay a strong sim over years ONLY if devs and simmers are interested in to improve it over time !!

 

Peace.

Edited September 22, 2008 by A.S

[RedTiger]

Your realism mod won't really affect me any, and TBH if it were possible for single player, I'd use it. So don't take this the wrong way (because I'm in favor of it, FWIW), but it is ironic that the anti-LOMAC open source crowd who also happen to be the multiplayer crowd has done exactly what many who want open source code wanted to do; make the damn thing more realistic.

[A.S]

When the 90s server comes up (soon)

 

CHANGES:

 

Mig-29 S instead of A

2x R-73

1x R-27ER

1x R-27ET

2x R-77

 

Su- 27

2x R-73

2x R-27ET

4x R-27ER

 

F-15C

2x AIM-9

2x AIM-7

4x AIM-120

 

and with new AIM-120 and R-77 anti-exploit dodge fix

 

Then you will have also a new PAYLOAD CHECK included, meaning

if you change payload and join the server, you will not be able to

spool up your engines :music_whistling:

 

I think that was long time wished by many, wasnt it ? :smilewink:

Edited September 22, 2008 by A.S

[RvEYoda]

Your realism mod won't really affect me any, and TBH if it were possible for single player, I'd use it. So don't take this the wrong way (because I'm in favor of it, FWIW), but it is ironic that the anti-LOMAC open source crowd who also happen to be the multiplayer crowd has done exactly what many who want open source code wanted to do; make the damn thing more realistic.

 

 

I have not touched any parts of source code!

 

It's just lua

Just want to make this clear to everyone and ED. I do not possess any source code

or information about it.

[Pilotasso]

Very smart LUA coding I might add. I wonder why it hasnt been donne before.

[RvEYoda]

RC5 documentation is almost ready, then server turns into "the 90s server"

with automatic payload check on load-in.

 

If you don't have the right payload, you can't start the engines :P

 

As always, remember that it's a test version. Give all the feedback you want,

this part sucks, this part is good, etc etc etc.

[RedTiger]

I have not touched any parts of source code!

 

It's just lua

Just want to make this clear to everyone and ED. I do not possess any source code

or information about it.

 

Yes, I know you haven't. The point is that one of the things that people would like to do with LOMAC's open source is make the simulation more realistic. Many multiplayer simmers are against open source code, and for good reason. They don't want there to be a zillion different versions of the sim and they don't want anyone cheating. The irony here is that now an entire multiplayer server will run what is basically a different version of LOMAC.

 

To put it another way...if ED DID release the code, would you look the other way and not take advantage of it or would you use your new found power to mod the sim even further and make it even more realistic?

[RvEYoda]

Yes, I know you haven't. The point is that one of the things that people would like to do with LOMAC's open source is make the simulation more realistic. Many multiplayer simmers are against open source code, and for good reason. They don't want there to be a zillion different versions of the sim and they don't want anyone cheating. The irony here is that now an entire multiplayer server will run what is basically a different version of LOMAC.

 

To put it another way...if ED DID release the code, would you look the other way and not take advantage of it or would you use your new found power to mod the sim even further and make it even more realistic?

 

 

I would try to fix this properly, and not through lua, and yes,

take it further ;)

[RvEYoda]

New Documentation RC5 is up

[Mugatu]

Excellent work Yoda!!

[rattler]

Yoda,sir:

Would it be possible to make this truly public by making a mod for the general public to try. There are lots of pilots that do not play on MP and would love to have the improvements that you have done. Call it beta WIP what ever, I am sure there would be more feedback as well. I have to say and not meant as a knit Pick, but some very good mods are done either by Sqd. or MP or other Types(don't know what to call them). ADA has shared V1.o with the whole community and will do the same when V2.0 becomes finished. I know yours is a work in progress and to get to try it you have to be on your server, but a lot of people don't use MP servers. You say Public and I am only asking if it would be possible to make it truly public in the form of a beta mod. Please don't take offense to this as none is intended just a request for those that don't go on MP servers and would like some improvements beta or other wise. Cheers, keep up the great work and hope that all will be able to enjoy your hard efforts to improve this sim. Cheers and good luck regardless of your decision. I had to ask but it is your hard work and no complaints if it stays on MP. It is after all your efforts no one elses.

Edited September 22, 2008 by rattler

[hitman]

The improvements he implemented are server wide only, just a set of rules to abide by in their server only, or servers running their script. What they are implementing cannot be controlled by AI, and the AI are already limited in every aspect of the game. This would strictly be a server setting.

[RvEYoda]

Yes everyone, Once we feel like enough of the bugs are gone, I'll make sure to share

this with everyone to try.

 

Note however that the mod only works on "you", it doesn't work on AI,

so you cannot use it with its full features vs AI.

 

Rattler I recognize your callsign, would you be the same Rattler from Falcon?

 

I remember I made a IR missile mod for OpenFalcon a while back. It's quite funny it turned out

almost identical to AF IR missiles, without me even having tried those until much later :P

 

For the IFF of the F-15 we are currently hoping that we can have it on the next locerf

on saturday :). It looks like we might be able to use it there!

That would be the first test of part of this stuff outside the squad server.

Edited September 22, 2008 by =RvE=Yoda

[RvEYoda]

First RC5 version is now running on server. ....

Expect lots of bugs now at first :)