Air Refueling Cheat

[Tippis]

27 minutes ago, freehand said:

@Tippis you have 5 or 6 times replied with sarcastic digs at SharpeXB with no reply from him why the attitude ?

Because his reasoning is at best weak and faulty, and far more commonly just outright uninformed or flat out wrong. He loves to make these broad generalisations and sweeping statements, but when pushed — even just a little — it soon turns out that it's all based on… well… baseless assumptions and even outrigth refusal to actually research the facts.

 

I (more than) suspect he has me on ignore because he learned long ago that if he actually tried to respond to my arguments, his complete lack of logic would be picked apart and shown to just harm his case. Not responding is his only chance of maintaining any semblance of credibility, since at least then he can keep himself from getting all tangled up in falsehoods, contradictions, and all manners of hypocrisy.

 

But that doesn't mean that his non-arguments, mental gymnastics, and gross misunderstandings of how things work deserve to be left unopposed. Quite the opposite. And if he chooses to not try to defend his claims, then that's on him. Sometimes, someone else will pick up the gauntlet and present an actual argument, and it may spawn a constructive discussion, so it's not all a matter of shouting into the void.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Tippis

[Tank50us]

5 hours ago, Tippis said:

This kind of training aid will very obviously help because

1. It gives you something obvious to pay attention to, in a situation where you have no idea what you should be looking at. This is not something that a new player will intuitively know, and this kind of aid would allow the game to guide your eyes to where they need to be. The notion that it would be distracting is disproven by just about every advance in pilot workspace in the last 100 years.

2. It is not meant to be a substitute for practice. That's just some nonsense you've made up and you'd have to be pretty clueless to think that, especially when it is being described as a “visual aid”. In fact, to confuse the two, you'd have to be deliberately misinterpreting what people are asking for just so you can stomp your feet and say “no” without a shred of argument to support your stance.

3. Being a training aid, it helps people get the most out of their practice. It turns that practice into a ladder rather than two discrete and widely separated discrete steps. If you want people to practice more, this will make that happen. As always, you actually argue in favour of the very thing you don't want to see for no cogent or coherently explained reason.

4. It has already proven to work. You're just not familiar enough with the genre or with the methodology or with learning in general to know this.

5. Learning by being shown is one of the most powerful methodologies out there.

6. Learning by being shown interactively is the one thing that is even more powerful than just being shown passively.

 

There's also a 7. Learning with aids will get a person used to getting the muscle memory in.

 

Those denying this fact have never taken apart and reassembled a rifle, and it shows. Those of us who've been in the military all learned such a thing by studying a manual, and eventually got to the point where we could do it nearly blind-folded.

 

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

Two words...

 

GIT

 

GUD

 

Comments like this don't do any of those who struggle to refuel when attempt after attempt results in them hearing their engines spool down and the blasted tanker constantly telling them to "Return pre-contact"

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Learning with aids will get a person used to getting the muscle memory in

 I think if you don’t have the muscle memory to fly formation with another aircraft, you won’t develop that muscle memory flying with green rectangles or whatever. It’s not the what you’re supposed to do that difficult to understand, it’s just the doing part that requires practice. 

[Tippis]

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 I think if you don’t have the muscle memory to fly formation with another aircraft, you won’t develop that muscle memory flying with green rectangles or whatever.

Of course you will.

There is no difference between green rectangles and an aircraft — they both require the same inputs to stay properly aligned. You can't on the one hand say that one of the two will help you get that muscle memory and at the same time say that the other will not. It's both or neither. The difference is that one of the two can offer much clearer indication and this will, unavoidably, help with the learning more than if you didn't have that indication there.

 

What you're essentially saying here is that you can't learn this skill if you don't have the skill already, at which point you obviously don't have to learn it — it's already there. But that also means you can never learn it since you never start out having it. And that's clearly nonsense.

 

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not the what you’re supposed to do that difficult to understand, it’s just the doing part that requires practice. 

…and which is greatly helped by being shown what to do; by having the practice be properly guided rather than just flailing blindly and hoping you get it right by pure chance.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Tippis

[Черный Дракул]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Have you learned to AAR in DCS? Because this suggestion makes it seem like you haven’t. If you have learned you would know this won’t help. 

Yup. But the thing is, I know better. Much better. This is what seems to differ us. 

 

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Lots a lots of practice. Weeks of practice.

Years, even. You can practice all you want, but without certain aids you will just work up some bad habits, which is contrary to the whole point of simulation. Visual aids are quite nice as a partial substitution for pilot-instructor. You know, the one who helps newbies in real life with understanding what goes where? 

[cfrag]

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Two words...

 

GIT

 

GUD

 

 

Sigh. Here's a 2017 reddit quote fromTemp89, referring to the DCS community:

"Here is the truth:

Some people try and define their identity with niche hobbies, and feel so threatened by other people even having the option of playing an 'impure' version that they'll spam 'git good! go play war thunder!' at anyone who touts their benefits.

Some people get more enjoyment out of playing games with the easy mode on. It's their choice."

 

Wise words indeed. 
 

 

18 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You're the one building a strawman (and engaging in whataboutism while at it)

 

Defendant: "it's my first offence"

Judge: "didn't you break into other houses?"

Defendant: "It's not the same house! That's Whataboutism!"

 

If examples of prior art are whataboutism to you, so be it. In court it would still have merit.

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, Черный Дракул said:

Years, even. You can practice all you want, but without certain aids you will just work up some bad habits, which is contrary to the whole point of simulation.

 

So using gampad to fly fighter jet wont work up some bad habits? But having a sim as realistic as it can be (no cheats and imaginary circles and what not) will work out bad habits, interesting.

[Tippis]

54 minutes ago, Furiz said:

So using gampad to fly fighter jet wont work up some bad habits? But having a sim as realistic as it can be (no cheats and imaginary circles and what not) will work out bad habits, interesting.

No.

Teaching yourself without any idea of what is right and wrong gives you bad habits.

Being taught, and especially being shown, with immediate and interactive feedback does not.

 

Whether you're using a gamepad or not is not a factor in the teaching method.

[Furiz]

13 minutes ago, Tippis said:

No.

Teaching yourself without any idea of what is right and wrong gives you bad habits.

Being taught, and especially being shown, with immediate and interactive feedback does not.

 

Whether you're using a gamepad or not is not a factor in the teaching method.

 

That can be done with a video, showing how to do AAR correctly, or a training mission, you don't need cheats for that. Can you make any of those for us, so we learn with no cheat?

 

just a reminder, he started this thread cause of gamepad and inability to refuel with it.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Furiz

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

That can be done with a video, showing how to do AAR correctly, or a training mission, you don't need cheats for that.

Maybe, but it's not nearly as powerful a teaching (or learning) tool as actually being shown, interactively, and in context when you're the one making things happen.

A lecture will never be able to teach the thing an instructor can.

 

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

Can you make any of those for us, so we learn with no cheat?

Why would you want to learn in an inefficient and potentially self-harming (for the lack of a better term — I agree that it's a bit over-dramatic as a choice of words) way?

Finding a video on how to do it is trivial, but again, that's not the same thing. So no, beyond that suboptimal lecture format, it can't be done for you. That's kind of the point. The game simply doesn't offer the facilities needed to make one. More to the point, if it did, it would be heavily reliant on those “cheats” you want to avoid because that would be the most effective way by far to create a good, well-staged ramp-up on the difficulty curve.

 

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

just a reminder, he started this thread cause of gamepad and inability to refuel with it.

…and it is still not a factor in what is the best way to acquire these kinds of skills.

[Черный Дракул]

4 hours ago, Furiz said:

So using gampad to fly fighter jet wont work up some bad habits?

No more than using a tabletop joystick. It, too, doesn't translate into the actual movements you have to do with the actual stick in an actual plane -- and it even uses other muscle groups, just like a gamepad one.

Spoiler

Some gamers tend to forget that and start fashioning themselves some sort of "also pilots", which is kind of fun to watch.

 

4 hours ago, Furiz said:

having a sim as realistic as it can be

It is straight out not in this aspect. Like I mentioned in my (?first) post to this topic, gamepad joystick movements do not translate into virtual stick responses as 1:1 for obvious reasons, but can be used correctly in tasks not requiring great precision. And if you want to resort to some precise fingertip flying with these and 1:1 response, you'll probably won't even have enough elevator authority to take off. This also affects all tabletop joysticks, even wide-angle gimbal ones like X-45 and X-52, although to a slightly lesser degree. 

Spoiler

If you try any helicopter, you'll immediately understand what I'm talking about, being forced to retrim not only of convenience, but because of rapidly losing control precision with movements from trim center. 

Response curves, crude as they are in DCS, are a crutch that can't effectively solve this problem, since they are static and can be fit only for a single use case. 

So making the sim as realistic as it can be in the aspect of joystick response must require dynamic response curves, probably switching between several profiles via button press. Then every device owner will be able to set profiles for general and precision tasks, or, in case of narrower-angle devices, several, like for navigation, combat and precision. I presume this will solve the accuracy problem. 

Spoiler

In the helicopter example above, the resulting curves are semi-dynamic, that is static with movable center. Having the capacity to temporarily switch any device into such mode will be the answer TS seeks. 

 

Like I said, there is more to that, which is described in my starting posts into this topic. This is only the singled out response problem.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Черный Дракул

[Harlikwin]

9 hours ago, Tank50us said:

 

Comments like this don't do any of those who struggle to refuel when attempt after attempt results in them hearing their engines spool down and the blasted tanker constantly telling them to "Return pre-contact"

 

Sadly its the truth, it takes practice, lots of it and there is no shortcut. Years into DCS I still struggle with it, and if I don't practice it its a perishable skill. Same thing with carrier landings. 

4 hours ago, cfrag said:

 

Sigh. Here's a 2017 reddit quote fromTemp89, referring to the DCS community:

"Here is the truth:

Some people try and define their identity with niche hobbies, and feel so threatened by other people even having the option of playing an 'impure' version that they'll spam 'git good! go play war thunder!' at anyone who touts their benefits.

Some people get more enjoyment out of playing games with the easy mode on. It's their choice."

 

Wise words indeed. 
 

 

Meh, not really, I hardly identify myself by DCS. But the point is that AAR is hard for most people, and at some point you should learn it. Thats all. There are no shortcuts, just like carrier landings, or hover landings in the harrier. You gotta put the time in. 

10 hours ago, Tippis said:

That's four words at the very least, depending on whether you read the first as an acronym as well or not…  

 

But presumably, this means you're in favour of an improved and expanded learning (and teaching) toolset?

 

Not sure what you mean by a teaching toolset. There are a bunch of vids on how to do it for each plane. And the general tips. Frankly I think most people just need to practice it. 

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

No more than using a tabletop joystick. It, too, doesn't translate into the actual movements you have to do with the actual stick in an actual plane

I’m ok with this since I will never fly a real F-18. But a tabletop stick is good enough for me to AAR with.

[Tippis]

43 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Not sure what you mean by a teaching toolset. There are a bunch of vids on how to do it for each plane. And the general tips. Frankly I think most people just need to practice it. 

By teaching toolset, I mean the long list of scripting and trigger functions available in the mission editor, and the numerous simplifications, helpers, and game aids available as selectable options to help create proper interactive tutorials and practice and training scenarios that can ramp up the difficulty over time rather than just dump everything in the player's lap and go “nah, why don't you figure it out?” Functions that exist for just about every single activity in the game except for one…

 

And yes, there are indeed shortcuts available for carrier and hover landings — exactly the kind of helper UI we're talking about here, among other things.

 

Maybe people need to practice it, but a proper toolset that applies to AAR, and a good ramp-up in difficulty level, would incentivise and facilitate that to a massive degree, and also be inline with not just what the game is explicitly supposed to provide but also with how it handles everything else.

 

34 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m ok with this since I will never fly a real F-18. But a tabletop stick is good enough for me to AAR with.

So it's really just a matter of controller chauvinism, then? Your setup works for you so screw everyone else — bleep you, got mine.

That's… refreshingly honest and disappointingly non-shocking.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Tippis

[Черный Дракул]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m ok with this

good enough for me

How is that even relevant? We weren't even discussing if you are comfortable enough, were we? The topics were bad habit building (which is bound to happen with the lack of a flight instructor or proposed visual/audio aids), good control reactions non building (due to severe disparity in controller) and ways to improve DCS experience. And your reply isn't relevant to any of these... 

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

to AAR with

And helicoptering with it, like I described and you can check yourself, is generally not good enough without constant retrimming. It needs to get better. 

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

How is that even relevant?

You were mentioning the sensitivity response of controllers and how that contributes to difficulty in AAR. I assume. Not sure what your point was. I’m saying a tabletop stick with a suitable response curve is good enough for me. The fact that it doesn’t 100% replicate a real full length F-18 stick isn’t really an issue since I’m only playing a game and not training at the real thing. 

10 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

And helicoptering with it, like I described and you can check yourself, is generally not good enough without constant retrimming

I don’t do helicopters in DCS. But many aircraft especially the WWII birds need constant trimming. This is normal. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Harlikwin]

Someone needs to post the vid of the guy doing inverted AAR with an xbox controller. 

[Tippis]

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The fact that it doesn’t 100% replicate a real full length F-18 stick isn’t really an issue since I’m only playing a game and not training at the real thing. 

…and just like that, the whole “but the real aircraft doesn't do [whatever]” line of reasoning against this improvement goes right out the window.  

 

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t do helicopters in DCS. But many aircraft especially the WWII birds need constant trimming. This is normal.

Most of the WWII birds can't be constantly trimmed because they lack the means to do so… So no, that's not really normal.

But that's why the game has simplifications that let you do things that the real aircraft doesn't do: because it's just a game and those kinds of affordances let people play that game and learn to fly with a wide variety of setups and input devices. So it makes all the sense in the world that similar affordances be made available for this one activity, same as with everything else.

[SharpeXB]

57 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Someone needs to post the vid of the guy doing inverted AAR with an xbox controller. 

I was about to say the same thing

[PLUTON]

I have a hotas to especially have the impression of being in a plane, on the other hand I have not yet succeeded in refueling in flight because it is not easy at all I will just continue to train. but I would not ask ED to make an easy refueling because in these qua la I would not take a simulator but an arcade game. But for what it is joystic there is a difference between not being able to have one and not wanting one.

[Tippis]

15 minutes ago, PLUTON said:

ut I would not ask ED to make an easy refueling because in these qua la I would not take a simulator but an arcade game.

Adding teaching tools and features that benefit learning to a study sim does not turn it into an arcade game. It only turns it into even more of a study sim.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Tippis

[maxTRX]

21 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

They do serve a purpose, namely aiding AAR positioning at night. It might be a surprising discovery to you, but a light that's dim during the day can be perfectly visible during the night. This is exactly the case in DCS, too. As it happens, during the night it's much harder to look at the tanker due to night being, you know, dark. The lights work fine then.

 

I've only used S3 tankers for about a year and I always have them flying in an orbit around the boat. Daytime, fairly routine (I've been doing this since... forever). At night, the tanker's position lights become visible at 0.1 nm and it's been like this... forever.  I'm going to post my 're-occurring' request in the wish list, again.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

Post it in bugs instead. Position lights on many other aircraft can be seen for miles. In fact, RAZBAM managed to overdo theirs. Position light should be visible from afar. Of course, it probably doesn't help our S-3 3D model is prehistoric.

[Tippis]

I wouldn't worry. By the time we have our cyberjacks running on DirectNeural 50.3, I'm sure they'll have all the models updated to current standards.

[Черный Дракул]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I assume. Not sure what your point was.

Why assuming if you can scroll back a bit? All the points we were discussing are mentioned in my post you're replying to. One personal user's comfort never was in question -- all these problems are systemic in DCS and need to be resolved as such. 

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The fact that it doesn’t 100% replicate a real full length F-18 stick isn’t really an issue since I’m only playing a game and not training at the real thing. 

Then having the capacity to turn on visual and other aids to train better, as well as other players being able to auto-refuel and whatnot will not impact your experience. 

Besides, if you were playing with floor-mounted joystick with extender, you'd have no need for response curves at all. Following your logic of dynamic/switchable curves not being necessary for gamepad controllers, how can we justify having the response curves for tabletop joysticks in the first place? 

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t do helicopters in DCS.

If you did, you'd immediately see how immensely useful even pseudo-dynamic curves are. Preset switching for curves is just a single step forward from it. 

 

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Someone needs to post the vid of the guy doing inverted AAR with an xbox controller. 

Why, exactly?