Mirage III/5 Progress

[suntw1989]

I was very happy that Razbam Simulations announced to develop Mirage III module on DCS.

 

However, we could see that there is no significant progress on this project since we compared images of mirage III uploaded on Sep, 2016 and Aug 2020.

 

I am really disappointed that Razbam almost did nothing on this project during last 5 years and annouced to develop so many modules such as Electric Lightning, AMX attacker.

 

Parallelly developing so many projects is obviously not matching for Razbam simulations' resources and ability.  So many years delay and little progress is not good for DCS community.

 

I want to know if Razbam has a clear plan for Mirage III project. How much labour resources will be involved with Mirage III project?

 

Is that possible for other studio to develop a Mirage III or Mirage 5 module?

 

 

[Ce_Zeta]

Maybe Aerges can develop the Mirage IIIE after the Mirage F1 project.

[suntw1989]

34 minutes ago, Ce_Zeta said:

Maybe Aerges can develop the Mirage IIIE after the Mirage F1 project.

I want to pre-order mirage f1 as early as possible to support them. They could expand their team to work on Mirage IIIEE earlier.

 

Another possible solution is JF-17 developer Deka. It seems that they have some connections with Pakistan Air Force which is the only current operator of Mirage III.

[WinterH]

From what I can follow so far, Razbam's current new module development priorities are Super Tucano and Strike Eagle, and MiG-23 will follow them. Again, this is mostly my impression based on available data/statements etc. There is also the Bo-105, but that's almost entirely a separate independent team.

 

Their Mirage III, right now, is being modeled as an AI asset first, for their upcoming South Atlantic map. It will later be made into a module, at some point. More or less everything else they have announced, showed, teased etc also either fall this category (AI first, module later at some point), or way down in their pipeline. So I personally wouldn't expect a DCS: Mirage III in near future, or even in next couple of years really.

Again though, that's just my (semi-educated-observation-driven) guess.

Edited July 4, 2021 by WinterH
typo

[TLTeo]

Razbam have "announced" at least a dozen modules (off the top of my head - A-29, Mig-23, F-15E, EE Lightning, IAI 58 Pucara, OV-10 Bronco, AMX, Mirage 3, Super Etendard, AV/8B+, Mirage 2000-5, Mig-19S, Canberra, Bo-105, and they even teased an F-100 and F-102). If you optimistically assume 4 years of work per module, that works out to 48 years worth of work, and even those supposedly are taking a backseat to finishing their existing ones despite said existing modules being out of EA.

 

When you look at it that way, yeah, "their" Mirage 3 won't be anywhere near release for at least a decade. It's much, much more likely that some other 3rd party dev will release it instead. As suntw said, Aerges and Deka are possibly candidates (or even some new 3rd party - there's a group of modders that's trying to get a Kfir project going, but who knows how that's going).

Edited July 4, 2021 by TLTeo

[Ikaros]

1 hour ago, TLTeo said:

 and they even teased an F-100 and F-102).

 

 

I would definitely buy those. Where did you see those teasers at? I want to check that out.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Ikaros

[TLTeo]

5 hours ago, Ikaros said:

I would definitely buy those. Where did you see those teasers at? I want to check that out.

Somewhere on their Discord. It was just a very simple 3d model. They are not happening any time soon if ever, not from RB.

[suntw1989]

2 hours ago, TLTeo said:

Somewhere on their Discord. It was just a very simple 3d model. They are not happening any time soon if ever, not from RB.

Razbam even posted a image of F105 3D model on May 2017. From then on, we never hear anything about F105 from Razbam.

[suntw1989]

8 hours ago, Ikaros said:

 

I would definitely buy those. Where did you see those teasers at? I want to check that out.

 

Razbam developed a F102 module on FSX. So many players discussed about the possibility that Razbam brought F102 to DCS platform. But we could not find any information on DCS F102 from their Facebook page or website. A7 attacker is under similar situation. Razbam also has A7 module on FSX and announced to develop flyable A7 module after Mirage IIIcj in 2017. Razbam never talks about A7 since 2017. The australian studio FlyingIrom started to work A7 module since last year.

[Bozon]

It amazes me that the only 2 jets that are “must-buy-day-1” for me, the Mirage III and F-4 Phantom are not even in the road map for DCS.

 

OK the Mirage III is probably not that popular for the US market, but the Phantom?! That thing will probably sell at least as well as the F-14 or better.

 

For the next few years all Mirage III fans will have to settle for the F-1. I know that it looks weird - Mirage F-1 looks like someone took apart a Mirage III and then tried to put it back together without the instructions. But it is a Mirage and it is still from the age when planes were flown by pilots and not by computers.

 

If Kfir will make it to 3rd party module, I’ll sure buy that as well. Unlike the F-1, the Kfir developers at least had Dassault’s (stolen) plans when the were putting it together, so the Mirage III ancestry is very clear.

[suntw1989]

17 hours ago, Bozon said:

It amazes me that the only 2 jets that are “must-buy-day-1” for me, the Mirage III and F-4 Phantom are not even in the road map for DCS.

 

OK the Mirage III is probably not that popular for the US market, but the Phantom?! That thing will probably sell at least as well as the F-14 or better.

 

For the next few years all Mirage III fans will have to settle for the F-1. I know that it looks weird - Mirage F-1 looks like someone took apart a Mirage III and then tried to put it back together without the instructions. But it is a Mirage and it is still from the age when planes were flown by pilots and not by computers.

 

If Kfir will make it to 3rd party module, I’ll sure buy that as well. Unlike the F-1, the Kfir developers at least had Dassault’s (stolen) plans when the were putting it together, so the Mirage III ancestry is very clear.

ED sacrificed Belsimtek's F4 project to launch F16 and Mi24 earlier. I agree with your estimation on F-4 module market. No one would neglect vietnam war-era market. I think F4 will be back on track after F18 leave EA stage since ED still hold F4 license. I don't think ED could find any jet project better than F4 and other candidate Heatblur will focus on A-6 attacker.

 

Unfortunately, Razbam drew a too big unclear roadmap covering too many attractive planes. Considering their relationship with French Air Force and Dassault, I guess Razbam got the license but has been in short of flight dynamics experts and programmer for cockpit since they are all busy with F-15E project and updating Mirage 2000c. So they could not start the Mirage III project though they hired a 3D modeller in Argentina to work on Mirage III external model. I had a look on that guy's webpage. He seemed still working on Mirage III external model and even has a Mirage III 3D image with camo.  

 

I love the Razbam's mirage 2000c module. I think they are smart guys but need some professional guidance and supervision on project management and planning.

 

Hopefully, Razbam could cooperate with other studio to start Mirage III as early as possible. They said they would finish Sea Harrier FRS.1 and IA-58 attacker before Mirage III.

If they keep working on current pace, I don't think I can fly their Mirage III module before 2031.

 

[Lurker]

I didn't know that the M2000-5 is planned, I thought that they didn't have clearance for that. 

[Qiou87]

1 hour ago, suntw1989 said:

Unfortunately, Razbam drew a too big unclear roadmap covering too many attractive planes. Considering their relationship with French Air Force and Dassault, I guess Razbam got the license but has been in short of flight dynamics experts and programmer for cockpit since they are all busy with F-15E project and updating Mirage 2000c. So they could not start the Mirage III project though they hired a 3D modeller in Argentina to work on Mirage III external model. I had a look on that guy's webpage. He seemed still working on Mirage III external model and even has a Mirage III 3D image with camo.  

 

I love the Razbam's mirage 2000c module. I think they are smart guys but need some professional guidance and supervision on project management and planning.

There seems to be a big overestimation of the link between Razbam and Dassault here. Did you ever wonder why the module is called "M-2000C", not "Mirage 2000C"? And why Dassault is not named one time on the product page? Doesn't look like Razbam has a licence for it, or any kind of positive relationship with Dassault, from there. Dassault to be fair is very secretive and hasn't really shown interest in providing data or licences for flight sims. I remember how they pressured one team of modders of the Rafale to shut down their project...

Razbam do have some relationship to the French air force, which uses DCS/M-2000C for some simulator training. The 2000-5 was thrown on the table as a possibility but by the time Razbam would be finished with it, the -5 wouldn't be in active service anymore, so there wouldn't be a big advantage for the French air force there. A 2000D would make more sense since it will be kept in active service much longer, but that would be a lot of work for RB.

 

My understanding is that they received external help to finish the M-2000C and that the recent updates are a result of that. I am not sure they are in any place to start a Mirage III: their resources are already spread thin, they have more advanced projects in the works... Not to mention you also need excellent access to SMEs and data for a full module. Honestly they are better off focusing 100% on finishing Harrier/M2000, then pushing for Tucano/F15E (probably the biggest cash cow for them) and then Mig23, and forget about the rest for a few years.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Qiou87

[Evoman]

A RAZMAB representative had made this comment on their FB page regarding their current timeline.

"The AMX, EE Lightning and Sea Harrier can be expected after the F-15, Mig23 and Super Tucano. "

 

This was the last info I saw regarding the Mirage III. 

 

Each of these already have a 3d developer assigned, who is currently busy with already scheduled and licensed developments, so they are NOT a PRIORITY for the time being.

IA-58 Pucara 
Mirage III (or) IAI Dagger (either one, not both)
Dassault Super Etendard
Sea Harrier FRS.1

[suntw1989]

5 hours ago, Evoman said:

A RAZMAB representative had made this comment on their FB page regarding their current timeline.

"The AMX, EE Lightning and Sea Harrier can be expected after the F-15, Mig23 and Super Tucano. "

 

This was the last info I saw regarding the Mirage III. 

 

Each of these already have a 3d developer assigned, who is currently busy with already scheduled and licensed developments, so they are NOT a PRIORITY for the time being.

IA-58 Pucara 
Mirage III (or) IAI Dagger (either one, not both)
Dassault Super Etendard
Sea Harrier FRS.1

They often share the pictures of IA-58. Mig23 is still in very, very initial phase since they have not started 3D scan for cockpit.

 

[WinterH]

21 minutes ago, suntw1989 said:

They often share the pictures of IA-58. Mig23 is still in very, very initial phase since they have not started 3D scan for cockpit.

 

I've seen MiG-23 cockpit scans on their discord a while ago now. Pucara will be AI first, and probably also a module at some point, like in distant-ish future. Same for the Mirage III, it's external model is in progress, I've seen WIP images in last few months. But at first it will be AI for South Atlantic map, and later  a module.

 

I don't see anything other than F-15E, MiG-23MLA, and Super Tucano releasing from Razbam in at least next 2 years personally. I mean, even if all 3 of these release in that time frame, I'd be somewhat surprised.

[suntw1989]

3 minutes ago, WinterH said:

I've seen MiG-23 cockpit scans on their discord a while ago now. Pucara will be AI first, and probably also a module at some point, like in distant-ish future. Same for the Mirage III, it's external model is in progress, I've seen WIP images in last few months. But at first it will be AI for South Atlantic map, and later  a module.

 

I don't see anything other than F-15E, MiG-23MLA, and Super Tucano releasing from Razbam in at least next 2 years personally. I mean, even if all 3 of these release in that time frame, I'd be somewhat surprised.

Thank you for the latest information. It will be very very long waiting for Mirage fans.  In 2016, Razbam metioned a 3D artist called Alejandro Klichowski was working on Mirage III external model. I found some Mirage III pics uploaded by this guy on artstation website. The link is here. https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AqL2AX  Visual effect of external model looks great. 

Based on his recent post on youtube, it seems that he is still working for Razbam on A-4AR external model.

[suntw1989]

23 hours ago, Lurker said:

I didn't know that the M2000-5 is planned, I thought that they didn't have clearance for that. 

Qiou87's estimation is very logical. 

Razbam's staff managing their facebook page did reply my question on M2000-5 in 2020. They said they did have a plan but had not started.

[Qiou87]

6 minutes ago, suntw1989 said:

Thank you for the latest information. It will be very very long waiting for Mirage fans.  In 2016, Razbam metioned a 3D artist called Alejandro Klichowski was working on Mirage III external model. I found some Mirage III pics uploaded by this guy on artstation website. The link is here. https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AqL2AX  Visual effect of external model looks great. 

3D models are just a small part of a DCS module. Even the cockpit and texturing, while time-consuming, are just a part of it. It seems that the coding is often underrated in terms of time, be it the flight model, but also all systems and weapons (and the research to get access to all the data so that all systems actually work as intended). Behind every gauge and button in the cockpit, there is a lot of code. So you can see Razbam posting nice pictures of 3D models on their FB and think "wow, that thing is almost finished", but if they haven't started on the coding yet, it could be years before we see it ingame.

 

Not to mention that there is now a pretty solid precedent with the F-16: the community does not want a half-baked early access. F-14 and JF-17 are the targets in terms of content at EA release, I would say, which means you can't just have a pretty 3D model and cockpit, a decent flight model and half the systems working in some capacity to call it "ready for EA".

 

I am French, of course I would like to see the Mirage III and the SuperE that Razbam has in their drawers somewhere. But I try to be realistic, they have so many projects and if they manage to release one per year, maybe we can see the Mirage in 5yrs? Here's hoping...

[WinterH]

11 minutes ago, suntw1989 said:

Based on his recent post on youtube, it seems that he is still working for Razbam on A-4AR external model.

To be honest, I didn't see anything linking those A-4AR videos to Razbam. They look like artist's showcase material. Also I think current Mirage III modeler is someone else, but don't recall the name.

 

I find Qiou87's estimation above to be likely: would be happy to see a Mirage III in next half decade.

[Mars Exulte]

On 7/4/2021 at 6:38 PM, suntw1989 said:

Parallelly developing so many projects is obviously not matching for Razbam simulations' resources and ability.

  Those other projects are mostly busy work for their 3d artists who would likely otherwise be unemployed.

 

On 7/4/2021 at 6:38 PM, suntw1989 said:

  So many years delay and little progress is not good for DCS community.

  It's not ''anything'' for the DCS community. They haven't taken any money, you're not out anything and neither is anybody else. Them doing stuff on the side while people are impatiently complaining about it on the forums is more a testament to individual maturity than their business model.

 

On 7/4/2021 at 6:38 PM, suntw1989 said:

I want to know if Razbam has a clear plan for Mirage III project. How much labour resources will be involved with Mirage III project?

  I expect none at the moment, considering they have mostly been focused on wrapping up the Harrier, M2000, and MiG-19 (which afaik are mostly all in final stages). Their next focus looks to be on the Strike Eagle and MiG-23.

 

On 7/4/2021 at 6:38 PM, suntw1989 said:

Is that possible for other studio to develop a Mirage III or Mirage 5 module?

  Anything's possible. All another company has to do is choose to pursue that aircraft, it's not up to Razbam what other companies do or don't develop. Most of them are occupied with their own projects, and have the distinct pleasure of listening to their own little micro communities complain about 'what's taking so long for *insert*'

Edited July 8, 2021 by Mars Exulte