already in development DLSS is now free

[MadKreator]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

See how this works is I ask her “how much did you spend”? To which she replies “oh I had this coupon so I saved $100”

no.. that wasn’t the question

So by that logic I tell her my PC cost $200 since there was a sale

I bought the 4080 a few days ago, was headed out the door to Best Buy to pick up, she says oh wait I want to go…(damn.. busted). I pick it up, she asks “what on earth is that thing, how much was it”. I quietly mutter $1200… she looks at me and says.. “ you sure do love your computer stuff don’t you” . Quick and painless LOL ( truth is she’s a really good person and neither of us care what the other wants to buy) But i still get the WTF look.. must be a baseline thing wives are required to do

[skywalker22]

12 hours ago, MadKreator said:

I bought the 4080 a few days ago, was headed out the door to Best Buy to pick up, she says oh wait I want to go…(damn.. busted). I pick it up, she asks “what on earth is that thing, how much was it”. I quietly mutter $1200… she looks at me and says.. “ you sure do love your computer stuff don’t you” . Quick and painless LOL ( truth is she’s a really good person and neither of us care what the other wants to buy) But i still get the WTF look.. must be a baseline thing wives are required to do

Thats why I always tell the half the price, but the end result is almost the same  

[Qiou87]

13 hours ago, Solemn-laugh said:

Me too. I occasionally use that other civilian sim (always VR) and found DLSS in VR to be a waste of time for me (factory overclocked 3900 and 5900X) mainly because the text on dials becomes so blurry/smeary. So not assuming it will add much (if anything to VR UNLESS Eagle Dynamics can make a better job of implementing it (no idea if this issue is limited to that other sim, or if DLSS will do this in VR generally). 

DLSS in VR is a different beast than pancake and I assume it will be in DCS as well. In pancake your point of view does not change fast on multiple axes ; even with trackIR you move left/right and up/down in a predictable way, but with a VR headset your head naturally has slight movement on multiple axes at the same time - unless you are a robot. These slight movements probably generate difficulties for the algorithm to "guess" frames and missing details. I would very much love to read an in-depth analysis why DLSS VR generates so much blurriness in that other flight sim especially in the cockpit and is basically unusable.

I am curious why ED went for DLSS and not FSR which would have worked on nVidia but also AMD and Intel hardware. Are we going to see RTX effects in 2024? 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Qiou87

[edmuss]

19 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

I am curious why ED went for DLSS and not FSR

I believe that there are going to be two upscaling options available in the future, DLSS and presumably FSR

[okopanja]

Which version of DLSS will they support?

[5ephir0th]

5 hours ago, okopanja said:

Which version of DLSS will they support?

 

Quote

Deep Learning Super Sampling (DLSS) 2.0 is coming to DCS this year.

 

18 hours ago, Qiou87 said:

I am curious why ED went for DLSS and not FSR which would have worked on nVidia but also AMD and Intel hardware. Are we going to see RTX effects in 2024? 

 

Quote

Following the completion of DLSS/NIS, we will investigate Fidelity FX Super Resolution (FSR) for AMD GPUs.

 

Both from today newsletter, cmon guys...

[Qiou87]

8 hours ago, 5ephir0th said:

Both from today newsletter, cmon guys...

You realize I posted 10 hours BEFORE the newsletter was out, right? Still, the fact they will "investigate" does not explain why they decided to go for DLSS over FSR from the start. DLSS is exclusive to nVidia, whereas FSR would have worked with ALL GPUs. They might have their reasons: I was just curious to know about them. 

[okopanja]

FSR will also come...

[5ephir0th]

1 hour ago, Qiou87 said:

You realize I posted 10 hours BEFORE the newsletter was out, right? Still, the fact they will "investigate" does not explain why they decided to go for DLSS over FSR from the start. DLSS is exclusive to nVidia, whereas FSR would have worked with ALL GPUs. They might have their reasons: I was just curious to know about them. 

I think DLSS being a better technology and nVidia holding more than 80% of shared market are both good starting points and if i remember correctly, if you want to implement DLSS on your engine nVidia helps with their people.

In any case, having the basis requeriments on core engine should be easy to implement both of them

[ColinM9991]

4 hours ago, 5ephir0th said:

I think DLSS being a better technology and nVidia holding more than 80% of shared market are both good starting points and if i remember correctly, if you want to implement DLSS on your engine nVidia helps with their people.

The gist of it is, you can't please everybody. They implement DLSS and people ask "Why not FSR?". Had they chosen FSR first then people would ask "Why not DLSS?"

Bring on the DLSS implementation, collate feedback and master the craft. Then come the other versions. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what kind of an impact it has and it's great to see ED getting with the times in terms of technological advancement. The EDGE Engine is going to be is going to be smoking hot once all of these improvements are released.

Edited January 7, 2023 by ColinM9991

[Dragon1-1]

The difference is, everyone can use FSR, including AMD and GTX card users. Not everyone can use DLSS, as it's exclusive to RTX cards. I suppose that's the main point of contention, had FSR been implemented first, nobody other than hardcore Nvidia fanboys would complain.

[SkateZilla]

On 1/6/2023 at 2:21 AM, Qiou87 said:

DLSS in VR is a different beast than pancake and I assume it will be in DCS as well. In pancake your point of view does not change fast on multiple axes ; even with trackIR you move left/right and up/down in a predictable way, but with a VR headset your head naturally has slight movement on multiple axes at the same time - unless you are a robot. These slight movements probably generate difficulties for the algorithm to "guess" frames and missing details. I would very much love to read an in-depth analysis why DLSS VR generates so much blurriness in that other flight sim especially in the cockpit and is basically unusable.

I am curious why ED went for DLSS and not FSR which would have worked on nVidia but also AMD and Intel hardware. Are we going to see RTX effects in 2024? 

 

 

Assuming the Tech Docs are correct,
FSR 2.0 By Default does not support DX11, You have to contact AMD for FSR2.0 on DX11.

At this point, with DCS Moving to Vulkan, it doesn't make sense to waste time/resources on a DX11 FSR2.0 Implementation and then re-do it again for Vulkan.

DLSS 2.0 doesn't have the same problem with DX11/12, Vulkan etc.

Plus nVidia is around 85% market share, with 70%+ of that being RTX Cards.
 

[JOKERACTS]

I suggest that DCS to be develop into two version each for AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution and Nvidia DLSS 2&3. Just like current DCS version with two different version for single thread and multi thread version. That will make both AMD and Nvidia owner happy with improved FPS during gameplay, the DCS player will save much more money from PC hardware upgrade and turn more cash to purchase more DCS modules. 

Both AMD and Nvidia GPU supported Raytracing, its good to make DCS move forward into DirectX 12 ultimate, I see most game do support both DX11 and DX12 with both RTX on or off function that will be fully compatible for all round of older and new GPU.  

[SkateZilla]

5 hours ago, JOKERACTS said:

I suggest that DCS to be develop into two version each for AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution and Nvidia DLSS 2&3. Just like current DCS version with two different version for single thread and multi thread version. That will make both AMD and Nvidia owner happy with improved FPS during gameplay, the DCS player will save much more money from PC hardware upgrade and turn more cash to purchase more DCS modules. 

Both AMD and Nvidia GPU supported Raytracing, its good to make DCS move forward into DirectX 12 ultimate, I see most game do support both DX11 and DX12 with both RTX on or off function that will be fully compatible for all round of older and new GPU.  

This would create the problem of Having to Support 4 Separate Code paths for RELEASE/OB Alone, not to even mention developmental builds etc.
(ie ST-AMD, MT-AMD, ST-nVIDIA, MT-nVIDIA).

DCS is Moving to Vulkan, not DirectX 12.

That wont happen, Splitting the code paths between nVidia and AMD that is, as both are supposed to conform to the DirectX / Vulkan Standards in their drivers, if one has a problem over the other, 99% of the time it's driver related, as the DirectX API translates the instructions to send to the GPU Driver, which sends them to the GPU. (the Driver is the Bottleneck that Creates the CPU Overhead and Instructions bottleneck).

With Vulkan it will be the same, Minus the Driver, Vulkan API translates the instructions and Sends directly to the GPU.

Image Scaling is Image Scaling, they in principle function the same.
nVidia's DLSS 1.0, Spatial Upscaling, uses the tensor Cores to accelerate the process
nVidia's DLSS 2.0, Temporal Upscaling, uses the tensor Cores to accelerate and use AI to analyze the motion vectors.
nVidia's DLSS 3.0, Temporal Upscaling, uses the tensor Cores to accelerate and the AI to analyze the motion vectors as well as generate intermediate frames.

AMDFSR 1.0, Spatial Upscaling, uses the GPU Shaders to accelerate the process, Like DLSS 1.0, minus Dedicated Computational Cores.
AMDFSR 2.0, Temporal Upscaling, uses the GPU Shaders to accelerate the process and analyze motion vectors, minus Dedicated Computational Cores.
AMDFSR 3.0, Temporal Upscaling, uses the GPU AI (on rDNA3 or Zen4 APUs) or Shader Cores (on rDNA2) to accelerate the process and analyze motion vectors, as well as generate intermediate frames.

Single Thread and Multi-Thread are only separate because Multi-Threaded DCS is still in Preview / Testing. It will not always be separated. MT Will eventually fully replace ST.

DLSS is a generation ahead of FSR.
DLSS performs better than FSR most of the time due to separate AI Cores doing the work, vs FSR utilizing Generic Shader cores.
FSR 3.0 will Catch up with DLSS3.0 in performance and features, but DLSS3.0 has already been out for just under a year, FSR 3.0 is still being developed, and no release date has been set. FSR 3.0 will add Intermediate (Interpolated) Frame Generation, as well as Utilize the rDNA AI Cores on rDNA3 and Zen4 APUs. and rDNA 4 is expected to give significant hardware upgrades in both Ray Tracing Cores and AI Cores.

FSR3.0 will supposedly function on rDNA2 and rDNA by continuing the use the Shader Cores (w/ Decreased Performance).

 

That's all Assuming ED even decides to integrate FSR, as the AMD GPU Market Share is still under 30%.

Edited July 15, 2023 by SkateZilla

[JOKERACTS]

That 's good for the multi thread to fully replace single thread in future, its good for Vulcan Api too with revolutionary:

"Object-based with no global state; All state concepts are localized to a command buffer; Multi-threaded programming is possible; Explicit control over memory management and synchronization; Vulkan drivers do no error checking at runtime; there is a validation layer for developers" 

information from Vulkan - Wikipedia , Vulcan do support Ray Tracing, hopefully it will support Nvidia DLSS and AMD FSR too.

And then ED can satisfying customer all over the world and all round of customer, thus make more money for ED themself bring both benefit to ED and customers.

 

[cfrag]

17 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

This would create the problem of Having to Support 4 Separate Code paths for RELEASE/OB Alone, not to even mention developmental builds etc.
(ie ST-AMD, MT-AMD, ST-nVIDIA, MT-nVIDIA).

By my count that's even more (ED already has 4 with ST/MT and Steam/Native):

• AMD/nVIDIA
• MT/ST
• Steam/Native

Without OB/Release we then would have 2^3 = 8 release paths. Just the thought of testing that makes me shudder (even with automated testing tools), not to mention supporting it (the VR branch alone is bad enough, having support both OpenXR and SteamVR).

Let's keep that super-sampling stuff abstracted. I remember the bad old times when there were separate versions of a game for 3Dfx and other accelerator card vendors. I'm not all too keen on seeing a repeat of vendor-specific game versions today.

Edited July 16, 2023 by cfrag

[SkateZilla]

4 hours ago, cfrag said:

By my count that's even more (ED already has 4 with ST/MT and Steam/Native):

• AMD/nVIDIA
• MT/ST
• Steam/Native

Without OB/Release we then would have 2^3 = 8 release paths. Just the thought of testing that makes me shudder (even with automated testing tools), not to mention supporting it (the VR branch alone is bad enough, having support both OpenXR and SteamVR).

Let's keep that super-sampling stuff abstracted. I remember the bad old times when there were separate versions of a game for 3Dfx and other accelerator card vendors. I'm not all too keen on seeing a repeat of vendor-specific game versions today.

 

The Code path's for the binaries are the same for steam and native.
The only difference is the distribution protocol, and removal of DCS_Updater.exe and it's references.
The Builds are identical outside of those changes.