ASW aircraft

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

11 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

 

And how are those platforms going to detect targets for you to receive in the first place? Magic?

 

And again, those torpedoes, use active/passive SONAR for guidance, where the exact same problems arise.

 

And as far as torpedo solutions go, aerial ASW torpedoes pretty much universally just enter a helical search pattern upon entering the water, then they use SONAR to detect and home in on the target, which might be passive, or active, or both, where the exact same issues apply. The only solution you need is where you drop it, which is just as close to the target as possible, essentially just overfly where you think the target is, and drop, the torpedo does the rest.

 

And what would be the point of an aircraft, which is at least in part dedicated to underwater search, not being capable of underwater search? In basically all cases of ASW aircraft, the main sensor used in detecting submarines is SONAR, either using sonobuoys or dipping SONARs.

 

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 11:56 AM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Hey, it's not my fault you don't get this really simple concept, that you need a sensor to detect stuff, whether it's ownship or broadcasted via datalink, and in this case the dominant sensor is SONAR, which is also the sensor that every single ASW weapon uses, that is capable of self-homing on underwater targets.

As for other ASW sensors, well we don't have any of those either, apart from spotting submarines visually on or near the surface.

You cannot get around implementing ASW without implementing SONAR in some form, otherwise you barely have ASW.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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[IkarusC42B Pilot]

18 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Hey, it's not my fault you don't get this really simple concept, that you need a sensor to detect stuff, whether it's ownship or broadcasted via datalink, and in this case the dominant sensor is SONAR, which is also the sensor that every single ASW weapon uses, that is capable of self-homing on underwater targets.

 

As for other ASW sensors, well we don't have any of those either, apart from spotting submarines visually on or near the surface.

 

You cannot get around implementing ASW without implementing SONAR in some form, otherwise you barely have ASW.

 

Lol it is your fault that you dont get it.

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 12:19 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Lol it is your fault that you dont get it.

Right... I'm the one who doesn't get it.

I take it you have absolutely nothing to say, can't offer a counter, can't offer an explanation and you're just trolling to save face?

Otherwise, please explain to me how datalink magically finds contacts for you, without a sensor.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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[QuiGon]

@IkarusC42B Pilot Don't be silly man. Without sonar there is no purpose in underwater warfare. Sonar is THE method to search and detect submarines. Without sonar there is no realistic way to detect subs which would make any sort of ASW pretty dumb. Even if target data is provided by data link, then the DL donor would have to detect the target first and for that it would need... sonar.

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 1:13 PM, QuiGon said:

@IkarusC42B Pilot Don't be silly man. Without sonar there is no purpose in underwater warfare. Sonar is THE method to search and detect submarines. Without sonar there is no realistic way to detect subs which would make any sort of ASW pretty dumb. Even if target data is provided by data link, then the DL donor would have to detect the target first and for that it would need... sonar.

Absolutely.

SONAR is by far the dominant sensor used in ASW, and for surface ships, essentially the only sensor.

There is MAD, but it's less capable AFAIK, and only works for more shallow depths.

The other sensors are visually (which either mandates very clear water, or requires that the submarine be at or near the surface or with periscopes/masts/antennae raised), and ELINT/ESM, which either requires your submarine transmit on communications or RADAR.

And I can't think of a single weapon that can self-home on underwater targets, that doesn't use SONAR, where the same issues arise.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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[IkarusC42B Pilot]

56 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Right... I'm the one who doesn't get it.

 

 

 

Yes. You dont understand 2 things.

For some reason you simply cannot conceive aircraft receiving contacts from the other warships and submarines via dl that do have sonars

And B the only one that can model underwater acustics is ED. Unless youre willing to wait decades until ed decides to do that so we can even have a p3 that just has a sound recorder the best we can ask for is this.

Edited July 31, 2021 by IkarusC42B Pilot

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 1:38 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Yes. You dont understand 2 things.

For some reason you simply cannot conceive aircraft receiving contacts from the other warships and submaribes.

Said warships and submarines, which would use SONAR to detect underwater contacts in the first place!

And in the case of warships and submarines, SONAR is about the only sensor they have, unless the submarine has its periscopes/masts/antennae raised and/or is transmitting on comms or RADAR.

And no, a submarine isn't data-linking anything to anything else. Surface ship maybe, but it's usually the other way around (i.e an MPA or helicopter would data-link what it finds to a surface ship).

Typically if a surface ship is detecting a submarine, that surface ship is in a fair amount of danger, because the submarine has almost certainly detected the surface ship and possibly has a weapon already on the way.

On 7/31/2021 at 1:38 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

And B the only one that can model underwater acustics is ED. Unless youre willing to wait decades for asw the best we can ask for is this.

I agree, but this is also on top of the other numerous things missing from the whole naval aspect.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Northstar98
correction

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Said warships and submarines, which would use SONAR to detect underwater contacts in the first place!

 

 

And no, a submarine is data-linking anything to anything else. Surface ship maybe.

 

Since we dont get subs and warships the devs of such aircraft can just do a workaround and make a circle with a grade and depending how close and how stealthy the sub is they can make a % of how likely they will detect the sub.

B:subs and warships have entire rooms with several operators maintaining networks. Its enough for ine sub(depending on its depth) to send it to a warship then the warship can send to everyone.(Have you seen a modern cic on warships?)

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 1:54 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Since we dont get subs and warships

Erm, we've got both...

We've got a good amount of surface ships with ASW capability, a couple are even dedicated to ASW...

We only have REDFOR submarines.

On 7/31/2021 at 1:54 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

the devs of such aircraft can just do a workaround and make a circle with a grade and depending how close and how stealthy the sub is they can make a % of how likely they will detect the sub.

While this is an approximation, it is possible the most crude you can make it - a particularly good analogue.

On 7/31/2021 at 1:54 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

B:subs and warships have entire rooms with several operators maintaining networks. Its enough for ine sub(depending on its depth) to send it to a warship then the warship can send to everyone.(Have you seen a modern cic on warships?)

Submarines do not data-link anything, their job is to remain undetected, which is why they stay in EMCON for most of the time, communicating over data-link would require the submarine come to periscope depth, and raise a communications mast, and start transmitting, which would immediately reveal its location to anyone with an ELINT device, including just about every serious warship or ASW aircraft.

And yes, I have seen a CIC, or OPS as it's called over where I live, I've actually even been inside them on a a couple of occasions, nothing on though.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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[IkarusC42B Pilot]

11 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

 require the submarine come to periscope depth,

 

 

This is why they have vlf radios to send data trough(dl)

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 3:33 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

This is why they have vlf radios to send data trough(dl)

Which is only going to be picked up by shore facilities, definitely not aircraft unless they're dedicated submarine communications - such as the Bear J.

And again, the doctrine of submarines is to remain undetected, and one of the ways you do that is with EMCON.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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[IkarusC42B Pilot]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

 

Which is only going to be picked up by shore facilities, definitely not aircraft unless they're dedicated submarine communications - such as the Bear J.

 

And again, the doctrine of submarines is to remain undetected, and one of the ways you do that is with EMCON.

 

[QuiGon]

What's the point of flying an MPA and dropping Torpedos on imaginary DL points anyway? Dropping Torpedos is like 5% of an MPAs capabilities. The far mor interesting stuff is the search for the sub. Dropping the weapon is just pressing the red button in the end.

[rkk01]

Surely, submarine warfare without a. sonar model is equivalent to BVR missiles without a working radar model…

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 4:43 PM, rkk01 said:

Surely, submarine warfare without a. sonar model is equivalent to BVR missiles without a working radar model…

Absolutely agreed.

On 7/31/2021 at 3:50 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

 

Submarines in 'low risk' and 'overt' are getting shot at by any remotely competent ASW asset in the vicinity, incredibly vulnerable to anybody with ELINT/ESM or RADAR. Stealth seems to be using an ice sheet using VLF/ELF (which will often be receive only with the submarine in EMCON, not that we have any arctic maps or VLF/ELF stations in DCS, let alone working ones). Hell, even in covert with a mast up is living dangerously if an ASW asset is around.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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[IkarusC42B Pilot]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Absolutely agreed.

 

 

Submarines in 'low risk' and 'overt' are getting shot at by any remotely competent ASW asset in the vicinity, incredibly vulnerable to anybody with ELINT/ESM or RADAR. Stealth seems to be using an ice sheet using VLF/ELF (which will often be receive only with the submarine in EMCON, not that we have any arctic maps or VLF/ELF stations in DCS, let alone working ones). Hell, even in covert with a mast up is living dangerously if an ASW asset is around.

 

It was a hyperbolic example so you can understand what vlf and elf do.

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 6:54 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

It was a hyperbolic example so you can understand what vlf and elf do.

Don't worry, I know the methods that submarines use to communicate underwater.

But VLF and ELF on submarines is typically receive only, so as to remain in EMCON, and the bit rate for both of them is horrific. Far worse than the V/UHF datalinks we're used to in aircraft.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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[Silver_Dragon]

On 7/30/2021 at 7:16 PM, Northstar98 said:

 

Awesome, thanks for the comprehensive information SD, I appreciate it!

 

Still it looks like the aircraft is solely dedicated to ASW, which calls into question just what ED's plans are.

 

The Tu-142 that we have (which is presumably a Tu-142MK [NATO: "Bear F Mod. 3"] or Tu-142MZ [NATO: "Bear F Mod. 4"] - I really wish ED would be more precise about the variants and not leave it completely ambiguous) has only the Kh-35 available (and I'm unsure if that's accurate, though it should definitely have an extensive ASW payload, consisting of sobobuoys (RGB-15, -25, -55, -75).

 

 

 

 

Sorry to no respond, has out of home. Review my "info":
Tu-142 [Bear F Mod 0-2] ASW Patrol

Counterm: 1st Gen Decoy
Sensors: Berkut radar, Berkut sonobuoy processor, 1st Gen ESM, Gen 0 RWR

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9080 kg
Def Guns: 2 NR-23 23mm in tail (0.5) with PRS-4 Krypton [Box Tail] GFC
• 268 RGB-1, 10 RGB-2 (search only)
• 176 RGB-1, 10 RGB-2, 3 RGB-3, 3 AT-1M or AT-2 or AT-2M torp, 14 PLAB-250-120 DC
• 12 MDM-3 or 6 MDM-5 mines
• 2 RYu-2 Skat nuclear DB, 4 AT-1M or AT-2 or AT-2M
Remarks: In Svc: Dec 72 - 1992
Service entry delayed by equipment trials. NDB type estimated.
• Tu-142 [Bear F Mod 0]: 12 delivered 1968-71. Main undercarriage of 12 wheels in an unsuccessful attempt to use unprepared runway surfaces. Range reduced to 4525 nmi.
• Tu-142 [Bear F Mod 1]: 5 delivered 1968-72 with standard undercarriage.
• Tu-142M [Bear F Mod 2]: 22 delivered 1974-77 with larger cockpit.
• Mar 70-72: Northern Fleet regiment equipped - 76th OPLAP at Kipelovo. Replaced by Mod 3 Aug 78-Dec 80.
• 1976: One Tu-142M converted to Tu-142MP with UMGT-1 and APR-2 torpedoes (see Tu-142MZ for loadouts).
• 1976-78: Pacific Fleet regiment equipped - 310th OPLAP at Khorl.
• 1977 on: Tu-142M upgraded to Tu-142MK standard (see separate entry).
• Aug 78-Dec 80: Northern Fleet a/c transferred to Pacific.
• 1980: 169th Guards formed Cam Ranh, Vietnam with 4 Tu-142 and 3 Mi-14PL. Due to short runway, fuel reduced to 70000 kg, 4700 nmi nmi range.
• Early 80s: Fitted to carry air dropped MG-74 3rd Gen mobile decoys (simulates C/V/Y/D class sub), replacing torpedoes to support submarines sorties.
• 1988-92: Retired.

Tu-142MK [Bear F Mod 3 & 4] ASW Patrol

Counterm: 2nd Gen Decoy
Sensors: Korshun radar, Korshun-K sonobuoy processor, MAD, 2nd Gen ES, Gen 0 RWR

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9080 kg
Def Guns: 2 NR-23 23mm in tail (0.5) with PRS-4 Krypton [Box Tail] GFC
• 66 RGB-75, 44 RGB-15, 10 RGB-25, 15 RGB-55, 3 AT-2M or APR-1 torpedoes
• 12 MDM-3 or 6 MDM-5 mines
• 2 RYu-2 Skat nuclear DB, 4 AT-2M or APR-1 torpedoes
Remarks: In Svc: Nov 80
25 delivered Sep 78-80 plus Tu-142M conversions. Some later to Tu-142MZ standards. Initially used Tu-142 sonobuoys until 1981, see Tu-142MZ loadouts. NDB type estimated.
• Aug 78-Dec 80: Northern Fleet equipped.
• 14 Mar 83: First deployment to Cuba.
• Early 80s: Fitted to carry air-dropped MG-74 3rd Gen mobile decoys (simulates C/V/Y/D class sub) replacing torpedoes to support submarine sorties.

 

Tu-142MZ [Bear F Mod 5] ASW Patrol

Counterm: 3rd Gen Jammers & Decoys 
Sensors: Korshun radar, Zarechye sonobuoy processor, MAD, 3rd Gen ES, Amethyst ASW sensor, 1st Gen RWR

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9080 kg
Def Guns: 2 GSh-23L 23mm in tail (1.8) with PRS-4 Krypton GFC radar
• 64 RGB-16, 10 RGB-26. 16 RGB-36, 3 UGMT-1M or 3 APR-2 torp
• 64 RGB-16, 10 RGB-26. 16 RGB-36, 14 PLAB-250-120 or 14 KAB-250-100PL Zagon DC
• 12 MDM-3 or 6 MDM-5 mines
Remarks: In Svc: 1993
Pacific Fleet only. Can carry air launched MG-74 mobile decoys (simulates C/V/Y/D class sub) replacing torpedoes. 39 delivered
1988-93 plus some Tu-142M upgrades. Service entry delayed by avionics issues.
• Jun 09: First operational refuellings by Il-78 Midas tankers.
• 2017: KAB-PL depth charge available, replacing Zagon.
• 2019: Fitted with control link for Forpost UAV.

 

By the enter on service, I think ED can build a Tu-142MZ to match with DCS World environment.

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 11:13 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

 

Sorry to no respond, has out of home. Review my "info":
Tu-142 [Bear F Mod 0-2] ASW Patrol

Counterm: 1st Gen Decoy
Sensors: Berkut radar, Berkut sonobuoy processor, 1st Gen ESM, Gen 0 RWR

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9080 kg
Def Guns: 2 NR-23 23mm in tail (0.5) with PRS-4 Krypton [Box Tail] GFC
• 268 RGB-1, 10 RGB-2 (search only)
• 176 RGB-1, 10 RGB-2, 3 RGB-3, 3 AT-1M or AT-2 or AT-2M torp, 14 PLAB-250-120 DC
• 12 MDM-3 or 6 MDM-5 mines
• 2 RYu-2 Skat nuclear DB, 4 AT-1M or AT-2 or AT-2M
Remarks: In Svc: Dec 72 - 1992
Service entry delayed by equipment trials. NDB type estimated.
• Tu-142 [Bear F Mod 0]: 12 delivered 1968-71. Main undercarriage of 12 wheels in an unsuccessful attempt to use unprepared runway surfaces. Range reduced to 4525 nmi.
• Tu-142 [Bear F Mod 1]: 5 delivered 1968-72 with standard undercarriage.
• Tu-142M [Bear F Mod 2]: 22 delivered 1974-77 with larger cockpit.
• Mar 70-72: Northern Fleet regiment equipped - 76th OPLAP at Kipelovo. Replaced by Mod 3 Aug 78-Dec 80.
• 1976: One Tu-142M converted to Tu-142MP with UMGT-1 and APR-2 torpedoes (see Tu-142MZ for loadouts).
• 1976-78: Pacific Fleet regiment equipped - 310th OPLAP at Khorl.
• 1977 on: Tu-142M upgraded to Tu-142MK standard (see separate entry).
• Aug 78-Dec 80: Northern Fleet a/c transferred to Pacific.
• 1980: 169th Guards formed Cam Ranh, Vietnam with 4 Tu-142 and 3 Mi-14PL. Due to short runway, fuel reduced to 70000 kg, 4700 nmi nmi range.
• Early 80s: Fitted to carry air dropped MG-74 3rd Gen mobile decoys (simulates C/V/Y/D class sub), replacing torpedoes to support submarines sorties.
• 1988-92: Retired.

Tu-142MK [Bear F Mod 3 & 4] ASW Patrol

Counterm: 2nd Gen Decoy
Sensors: Korshun radar, Korshun-K sonobuoy processor, MAD, 2nd Gen ES, Gen 0 RWR

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9080 kg
Def Guns: 2 NR-23 23mm in tail (0.5) with PRS-4 Krypton [Box Tail] GFC
• 66 RGB-75, 44 RGB-15, 10 RGB-25, 15 RGB-55, 3 AT-2M or APR-1 torpedoes
• 12 MDM-3 or 6 MDM-5 mines
• 2 RYu-2 Skat nuclear DB, 4 AT-2M or APR-1 torpedoes
Remarks: In Svc: Nov 80
25 delivered Sep 78-80 plus Tu-142M conversions. Some later to Tu-142MZ standards. Initially used Tu-142 sonobuoys until 1981, see Tu-142MZ loadouts. NDB type estimated.
• Aug 78-Dec 80: Northern Fleet equipped.
• 14 Mar 83: First deployment to Cuba.
• Early 80s: Fitted to carry air-dropped MG-74 3rd Gen mobile decoys (simulates C/V/Y/D class sub) replacing torpedoes to support submarine sorties.

 

Tu-142MZ [Bear F Mod 5] ASW Patrol

Counterm: 3rd Gen Jammers & Decoys 
Sensors: Korshun radar, Zarechye sonobuoy processor, MAD, 3rd Gen ES, Amethyst ASW sensor, 1st Gen RWR

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9080 kg
Def Guns: 2 GSh-23L 23mm in tail (1.8) with PRS-4 Krypton GFC radar
• 64 RGB-16, 10 RGB-26. 16 RGB-36, 3 UGMT-1M or 3 APR-2 torp
• 64 RGB-16, 10 RGB-26. 16 RGB-36, 14 PLAB-250-120 or 14 KAB-250-100PL Zagon DC
• 12 MDM-3 or 6 MDM-5 mines
Remarks: In Svc: 1993
Pacific Fleet only. Can carry air launched MG-74 mobile decoys (simulates C/V/Y/D class sub) replacing torpedoes. 39 delivered
1988-93 plus some Tu-142M upgrades. Service entry delayed by avionics issues.
• Jun 09: First operational refuellings by Il-78 Midas tankers.
• 2017: KAB-PL depth charge available, replacing Zagon.
• 2019: Fitted with control link for Forpost UAV.

 

By the enter on service, I think ED can build a Tu-142MZ to match with DCS World environment.

Awesome, thankyou very much SD!

Interesting that the Kh-35 also isn't this list for any of the Bear F mods, and they again look to be dedicated to ASW.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
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