Red Flag Su-30 MKI Lectures Video

[59th_LeFty]

New facts arised lately, this time from InAF perspective:

 

[*]Su-30 MKI's flown from Mountain Home AFB had a kill ratio of 21:1 in favour of the Indian Flankers.

 

??? Is it true? twenty-one - to one? It's a bit cuel... Isn't it supposed to be 2:1? If not, then its a performance which must be make USAF pilots dizzy :)

[Mugatu]

naa wouldn't believe it for a second.

[Pilotasso]

To me its not enough that the indians say they had 21:1 kill ratios and claim ACMI tracks to support it. They need to actualy come forward with those tracks to see what criteria they used to come up with these figures.

[Groove]

I don't think we will get access to that ACMI Files Pilotasso.

 

The whole article is in the latest AFM issue though.

[DarkWanderer]

To me its not enough that the indians say they had 21:1 kill ratios and claim ACMI tracks to support it.

But it is enough to you that USAF say they have such kill ratio?.. ;)

[X-man]

The whole article is in the latest AFM issue though.

Was it an 'official' Indian statement or just another pilot talking (similar to the lecture)? :)

[RedTiger]

But it is enough to you that USAF say they have such kill ratio?.. ;)

 

He never said that, but I will provide the following concepts for you to ponder:

 

1. Reputation

 

2. Experience

 

3. Number of years in existence

 

To turn it around in a more palatable way, here's a hint; if you had to bet money like your life depended on it, who would you believe is more likely to have the 20:1 ratio, the Russian air force or the Indian air force? You have no way of knowing, you just have to go on your gut instinct. I know who I'd bet on. ;)

[Pilotasso]

I don't think we will get access to that ACMI Files Pilotasso.

 

Precisely my point. ;) They will claim anything they want regardless.

 

But it is enough to you that USAF say they have such kill ratio?.. ;)

 

Not on multi-national exercises because results are rarely, if ever known. However combat records are much easier to come by. ;)

 

What we need now, is not to forget that the bar has been raised above the 20+ year old F-15/16's used in the exercise. :)

Edited December 30, 2008 by Pilotasso

[nscode]

Without proof I woundln't believe either. Just like in this case.

 

Reputaion is questionable (I mean reputation per se, not someones specific reputation)

 

US has only slight advantage in experience when it comes to fighting more advanced enemy.

 

Years in existance? Yea, sure ;)

[nscode]

Precisely my point. ;) They will claim anything they want regardless.

 

Yup, just like the US pilot dude ;)

[Pilotasso]

Precisely my point. ;) They will claim anything they want regardless.

Not on multi-national exercises because results are rarely, if ever known. However combat records are much easier to come by. ;)

 

Yup, just like the US pilot dude ;)

 

^^^^I believe I also mentioned the results of multi-national exercises are rarely known? I also didnt believe F-15/16's were butchered in Cope india like some other US dude said so. ;) :D

 

(read: plea for more F-22's).

Edited December 30, 2008 by Pilotasso

[RedTiger]

Without proof I woundln't believe either. Just like in this case.

 

Reputaion is questionable (I mean reputation per se, not someones specific reputation)

 

US has only slight advantage in experience when it comes to fighting more advanced enemy.

 

Years in existance? Yea, sure ;)

 

What are you talking about? I think you're misunderstanding me.

 

The USAF, counting the USAAF, has been flying successful sorties, both in actual combat and some of the most realistic training possible, for almost 70 years. It was putting bombs and rounds on target before India was even an independent country. That's the point, isn't it? For an air force, what type of reputation counts for you?

 

The USAF has an established culture that has been developed for all those years. You have years and years worth of knowledge preserved and passed down through the generations of pilots, dating all the way back to WWII.

 

And this says nothing of the USN who also has similar experience.

 

Whatever someone's bias may be this ^^^ counts. A LOT. To say otherwise is foolish. I'd put trust in this any day over an air force who lacks this or cannot measure up. If I'm wrong, oh well. I'll admit I'm wrong, but you can't blame me for where I put my trust.

 

I don't particularly know who to believe in this situation, but if someone wants to believe the USAF guy in this case, I won't hold it against them.

 

BTW, you can take out every single instance of the term "USAF" and put in any air force with this type of culture and tradition. I understand why you personally might find this uncomfortable. :) That is not my intention, at all. It has zero to do with any sort of nationalistic pride or any other hogwash that people like to stir in. Sorry, that has NO place in this discussion. If I was adding that in, I'd have a pretty crappy argument, don't you think?

 

I'd be just as willing trust in any such air force's capabilities. Its about having walked the walk, how long, and how you pass that info down, that's all. :)

Edited December 30, 2008 by RedTiger

[nscode]

No, sorry. It counts zero, none, null. What counts is what you can give right there, right now. The 70 years of expirience might help you on the long run, and in terms of developing and fine tuning tactics, and also deploying them on large scale. But when you first clash with a new kind of opponent it's down to the machine and the man.

[tflash]

The letter in AFM by Pushpindar Singh, editor of Vayu, claims this 21:1 ratio at Mountain Home AFB, where they flew prior to participating in Red Flag, with F-15 Eagles of Mountain Home’s resident 366th Fighter Wing and the F-16s of the 18th Aggressor Squadron from Eielson AFB, Alaska.

 

I do not think I believe this 21:1, I do not even know it is relevant. What I do know is that the leaking of the USAF guy video could only be one of two things: a very unprofessional act or a very malicious one.

I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of the guy featuring in that video, since my guess is he must have had some very though conversations with his superiors afterwards. Leaking such confidential views on international participant involvement is not going to add to the reputation of the USAF. And then we do not even talk about the vicious and embarrassing comments towards the French.

[RedTiger]

No, sorry. It counts zero, none, null. What counts is what you can give right there, right now. The 70 years of expirience might help you on the long run, and in terms of developing and fine tuning tactics, and also deploying them on large scale. But when you first clash with a new kind of opponent it's down to the machine and the man.

 

I'm sorry, but unless we're talking about UFOs and aliens here, something completely new and unprecedented, you're wrong.

 

What you "can give right there, right now" is a direct result of everything that came before. Is it required? No, but it sure as hell does help. Red Flag itself is living proof. Oh, I'm sorry, I guess the USAF throws out everything and starts fresh when they participate.

 

Ironic that all this experience and know-how is meaningless yet India wanted to attend Red Flag so badly, to say nothing of Cope India. :noexpression:

 

Why didn't they do Cope India with someone else?

Edited December 30, 2008 by RedTiger

[nscode]

Both sides did it to gain experience. If just tradition was enough, they wouldn't need exercises. And don't say nothing of Cope India. We're still not clear about what went on there either. In some 20 years we might get glimpses of the truth.

[tflash]

Don't forget the actual a2a engagements are only part of what Red Flag is all about. Being able to participate is already an achievement. It requires solid organisational skills and logistics capabilities. It also implies fitting in and adapting to a lot of procedures and rules. A basic part of the exercise is coordination, planning, maintenance, ground support, ... etc. It is a good preparation if one wants to cooperate in multinational forces, something the Indians would like to do in the future.

[Boneski]

You guys are funny!

[GGTharos]

Err hold on a second ... perhaps I misunderstood what is being said, but ...

 

The purpose of red flag is to get a pilot through his first x sorties in an environment where can apply what he has learned without the real fear of dying, where he can make his mistakes and they can be corrected, etc etc.

 

This results in a better trained pilot - it was determined that you become a good and experienced pilot after you 10nth or so sortie (the number isn't truly important, just the fact that you're far less likely to get splashed compared to the guy who was NOT given this experience).

 

Another fact is that DACT exercises are meant to teach you how to handle a foe flying a particular class of aircraft compared to the class of aircraft you're flying (broadly speaking, eg. energy v angle fighters)

 

It is thus important to know that those experiences you gain in the different kinds of training reduce your probability of being splashed compared to the guy who does NOT have them.

 

As an individual pilot, it's just important not to be surprised; if you know an aircraft has capability x, you can deal with it. If you're surprised by it, you might be in trouble especially if you permit yourself to fly around with a huge WTF what do I do now? sign over your head.

 

No, sorry. It counts zero, none, null. What counts is what you can give right there, right now. The 70 years of expirience might help you on the long run, and in terms of developing and fine tuning tactics, and also deploying them on large scale. But when you first clash with a new kind of opponent it's down to the machine and the man.

 

EDIT: As for COPE India, it was just a matter of F-15's being out-numbered and the Indians milking every advantage they could out of this situation. In the large picture the rest of the details don't matter all that much.

[nscode]

I don't think that anyone questions the fact that pilots came out of RF with loads of valuable experience.

 

^^^^I believe I also mentioned the results of multi-national exercises are rarely known? I also didnt believe F-15/16's were butchered in Cope india like some other US dude said so. ;) :D

 

(read: plea for more F-22's).

 

Yes, and it seems that not many people wanted to believe the "omg they kicked our asses, give us more F-22!!!1" story, so now the story is "no, man, we still kick ass, totally, yea, we the best. but you know, these guys, they gonna be damn scary in a few years, so you better give us more F-22!!!!!1"

 

:doh: :D

[RedTiger]

What I was trying to say is that all of what GG described, determining that a pilot is less statistically likely to be lost if he gets a certain amount sorties under his belt, the fact that there are definite right and wrong things to do and that a pilot can be corrected, this doesn't just come from nothing. This is the product of years and years of experience. Like any type of organization, years of experience create a certain culture that can be passed on to new members.

 

My point is that this should create some credibility, credibility that someone shouldn't be blamed for thinking matters.

[Groove]

Oroginally posted by MoGas on a other thread:

 

[Francous]

Here better