correct as is AGM-84E accuracy?

[Viper 13]

Question has there been any changes to the AGM-84E accuracy since its release?
I remember in Wags AGM-84E introduction video, he said its not as precise as a JSOW type weapon, so you'll need to take over and guide via the TV seeker. This is no longer the case anymore.

When I first tested them they needed terminal guidance from the pilot to hit a target as there would always be some drift.
However now they act like a fire and forget jet powered JSOW and always hit the TOO without any input from the pilot.
You don't actually need the DL pod anymore as they always hit the TOO with pinpoint accuracy.
If you do use the DL pod. When the TV seeker activates the cross-hairs will always be locked onto the target so the SLAM does not need any manual control from the pilot to hit the target.

I'm wondering if the older SLAM has the newer ER guidance by mistake?

DCS 2.7.6.13436 Open Beta

AGM-84E Test.trk

[Harker]

Yeah, they shouldn't be that accurate by themselves. They should need terminal guidance to achieve a hit.

[Rissala]

35 minutes ago, Viper 13 said:

Question has there been any changes to the AGM-84E accuracy since its release?
I remember in Wags AGM-84E introduction video, he said its not as precise as a JSOW type weapon, so you'll need to take over and guide via the TV seeker. This is no longer the case anymore.

When I first tested them they needed terminal guidance from the pilot to hit a target as there would always be some drift.
However now they act like a fire and forget jet powered JSOW and always hit the TOO without any input from the pilot.
You don't actually need the DL pod anymore as they always hit the TOO with pinpoint accuracy.
If you do use the DL pod. When the TV seeker activates the cross-hairs will always be locked onto the target so the SLAM does not need any manual control from the pilot to hit the target.

I'm wondering if the older SLAM has the newer ER guidance by mistake?

DCS 2.7.6.13436 Open Beta

AGM-84E Test.trk 1.18 MB · 4 downloads

Yup, the SLAM will always need terminal guidance. Should be a clear issue. Maybe ED could implement an area that the weapon will hit in randomly just like with the artillery bombardment in mission editor.

[Rissala]

Still an issue in the latest patch at this moment.
Pinpoint accurate with no guidance.

slam accuracy.trk

[Rissala]

@BIGNEWY
Is anything being done about this?
The SLAM is being used without the DL pod as a precision guided weapon with pinpoint accuracy.
 

 

[BIGNEWY]

On 3/20/2022 at 8:31 PM, Rissala said:

Still an issue in the latest patch at this moment.
Pinpoint accurate with no guidance.

slam accuracy.trk 55.19 kB · 0 downloads

Can I ask what your target was, the weapon hits the parking area. 

[Rissala]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Can I ask what your target was, the weapon hits the parking area. 

Target was the center of the helicopter landing circle "H" mark. It hits it right in the middle with pinpoint accuracy.

This was done to basically show that it is that accurate with 0 manual guidance.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rissala

[Rissala]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Can I ask what your target was, the weapon hits the parking area. 

I thought it would be obvious but here is a picture of the .trk.

Target is set in the middle of the "H". The SLAM itself is probably a better indication of where the precise point is...

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rissala

[Rissala]

That is basically laser guided weapon accuracy.

[BIGNEWY]

It is GPS so accuracy is going to be good, the data link just provides a man in the loop for retargeting if needed 

[TLTeo]

Then why would Wags state the opposite?

[Harker]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

It is GPS so accuracy is going to be good, the data link just provides a man in the loop for retargeting if needed 

It's still an old missile and terminal guidance is required, otherwise a hit is not guaranteed. Even with GPS assistance, it still has a CEP of at least a few meters (as any INS+GPS guided weapon), probably more, given its hardware. It should most likely miss, without terminal corrections.

CEP is already implemented for JDAMs (unsure if it's in for JSOWs), it should be implemented here as well.

Even the SLAM-ER should have a small CEP.

[rfxcasey]

With so many bigger fish to fry, even if this turns out to be an actual issue it should be way down on the priority list.

[Rissala]

18 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

It is GPS so accuracy is going to be good, the data link just provides a man in the loop for retargeting if needed 

This directly contradicts Matt Wagner @BIGNEWY.

This topic is about the SLAM, not SLAM-ER.
SLAM-ER has this precise GPS accuracy as a feature. The SLAM does not. (Makes sense since the original SLAM was a 90's weapon) (Source: Wagner's video)
Or is there something which I have missed after Matt Wagner's video on the subject?

Based on his video, this is very much not "correct-as-is".

Edited March 23, 2022 by Rissala

[Rissala]

10 hours ago, rfxcasey said:

With so many bigger fish to fry, even if this turns out to be an actual issue it should be way down on the priority list.

This is not an excuse to not list bugs. This is why this Hornet bugs forum exists.
Also, as I have many many times stated, I am not pushing for immediate action. I'm pushing for the acknowledgment of this bug. (purpose of this forum!?!)

1 minute ago, skywalker22 said:

Im quite happy with pinpoint accuracy, although its not coded as it does IRL

Only supporting "nice" and "useful" things gives everyone an unrealistic simulation of the aircraft.

[Rissala]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:21 PM, BIGNEWY said:

It is GPS so accuracy is going to be good, the data link just provides a man in the loop for retargeting if needed 

I hope @BIGNEWY you understand that:
The difference between the SLAM needing that final guidance (realistic) and not needing it (not realistic) is very much the difference between it being a fire-and-forget weapon or not. A realistic employment of this missile would require the DL pod and the fighter being inside the downlink radius.

Currently, you can just fire and forget 4 of these missiles from 100km away and get out without ever installing a DL pod on your jet. This changes the whole point of this missile in DCS drastically.

I have my doubts about the non-existent CEP this weapon has in DCS, especially when it was introduced 7 years before the original JDAM. And again, as Wags already described on his video, this behaviour is not correct in DCS.

[BIGNEWY]

I have been told it is correct as is, I dont have any more to say currently. 

thanks

[rfxcasey]

7 hours ago, Rissala said:

This is not an excuse to not list bugs. This is why this Hornet bugs forum exists.
Also, as I have many many times stated, I am not pushing for immediate action. I'm pushing for the acknowledgment of this bug. (purpose of this forum!?!)

Only supporting "nice" and "useful" things gives everyone an unrealistic simulation of the aircraft.

Who said anything about not listing bugs, all I said was, it should be low on the priority list, i.e. at the back of the line behind all the other bugs.

Edited March 23, 2022 by rfxcasey

[Rissala]

16 hours ago, rfxcasey said:

Who said anything about not listing bugs, all I said was, it should be low on the priority list, i.e. at the back of the line behind all the other bugs.

 

Yes I agree. It just isn't up to us to decide on what is priority and what isn't when it comes to bugs. We can just hope ED would at least acknowledge bugs/issues when they are pointed out.

[bfr]

On 3/23/2022 at 5:51 PM, Rissala said:

I hope @BIGNEWY you understand that:
The difference between the SLAM needing that final guidance (realistic) and not needing it (not realistic) is very much the difference between it being a fire-and-forget weapon or not. A realistic employment of this missile would require the DL pod and the fighter being inside the downlink radius.

Currently, you can just fire and forget 4 of these missiles from 100km away and get out without ever installing a DL pod on your jet. This changes the whole point of this missile in DCS drastically.

I have my doubts about the non-existent CEP this weapon has in DCS, especially when it was introduced 7 years before the original JDAM. And again, as Wags already described on his video, this behaviour is not correct in DCS.

Now its not a weapon I use often but I am I right in thinking that when it first got added to openbeta (and I was tinkering with it to see what it was like) it wasn't nearly as accurate (without terminal phase help via TV link) as your demonstration suggest?

[Rissala]

On 4/1/2022 at 10:40 PM, bfr said:

Now its not a weapon I use often but I am I right in thinking that when it first got added to openbeta (and I was tinkering with it to see what it was like) it wasn't nearly as accurate (without terminal phase help via TV link) as your demonstration suggest?

You would be correct. As Viper13 said in his original comment:
 

Quote

When I first tested them they needed terminal guidance from the pilot to hit a target as there would always be some drift.
However now they act like a fire and forget jet powered JSOW and always hit the TOO without any input from the pilot.

Now, as you might have seen in testing, the weapon is pinpoint precise. I think the cause might be in that the SLAM-ER flight profile has been mixed up with the SLAM flight profile.

[bfr]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:23 AM, Rissala said:

You would be correct. As Viper13 said in his original comment:
 

Now, as you might have seen in testing, the weapon is pinpoint precise. I think the cause might be in that the SLAM-ER flight profile has been mixed up with the SLAM flight profile.

Cool having just fired off 4 of them at the same coordinates with some mix of flight profile and all 4 hit with a CEP of about the area of a handkerchief then i'm inclined to agree with you.  These things are now WAY more accurate than they were when they were initially added to the sim.

 

Found this thread where people were complaining it wasn't pinpoint accurate, which at least makes me think we're not imagining it wasn't always right on the money every time

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by bfr

[Wroblowaty]

So both topics: SLAM being not precise and SLAM being pinpoint precise are marked "correct as is" ?

[bfr]

52 minutes ago, Wroblowaty said:

So both topics: SLAM being not precise and SLAM being pinpoint precise are marked "correct as is" ?

Looks that way, yeah.

[TLTeo]

@BIGNEWY @NineLine In light of the posts above, you really should have another look. It is not possible for the weapon to simultaneously be accurate and inaccurate without terminal guidance, something has to give.