Automatic IRCM

[Hummingbird]

Will the AH64D come with any automatic IR countermeasure system?

[AlphaOneSix]

Yes the CMWS automatically dispenses flares if it thinks that it is appropriate to do so.

[Hummingbird]

1 minute ago, AlphaOneSix said:

Yes the CMWS automatically dispenses flares if it thinks that it is appropriate to do so.

 

So it can detect manpad launches?

[AlphaOneSix]

Yes, and depending on the software version, rockets and small arms...although I think the version we will have will only detects rockets and missiles. I don't know if DCS will program in this differentiation, but in real life it knows the difference between the signature of a missile and an RPG. For an RPG it will declare "Rocket, Rocket" but will not dispense flares, for a missile it will declare "Missile, Missile" and will dispense flares according to some built-in program that is not editable by the pilot.

[Hummingbird]

That's very interesting, should help make me feel a bit more safe when overflying urban areas with manpads, currently Im a nervous wreck when doing so in the Hind

[AlphaOneSix]

45 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

That's very interesting, should help make me feel a bit more safe when overflying urban areas with manpads, currently Im a nervous wreck when doing so in the Hind

Yep! I should note that the CMWS also calls out the clock direction of the detected threat, in addition to displaying it on the tiny little CMWS screen.

[iRocco]

How does the system work? Anyone found infos about it?

[AlphaOneSix]

It uses sensors that detect IR and UV radiation and can use that information to classify burning rocket motors.

 

Magic is a much better answer.

Edited November 12, 2021 by AlphaOneSix

[kgillers3]

30 minutes ago, iRocco said:

How does the system work? Anyone found infos about it?

Magic

[Raptor9]

10 hours ago, iRocco said:

How does the system work? Anyone found infos about it?

Most details of CMWS, such as specific capabilities against what threats, and limitations are classified.

There is some open source stuff on it via google, but very limited.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Raptor9

[Harlikwin]

On 11/12/2021 at 2:33 PM, AlphaOneSix said:

It uses sensors that detect IR and UV radiation and can use that information to classify burning rocket motors.

 

Magic is a much better answer.

 

 

Its mostly the crossed out part. But a bit more complicated. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Harlikwin

[MoarDakka]

I'd have to assume that new IR jammers have replaced the old "disco ball" that used to be behind the rotor hub, I don't know where these jammers are however.

[AlphaOneSix]

3 hours ago, MoarDakka said:

I'd have to assume that new IR jammers have replaced the old "disco ball" that used to be behind the rotor hub, I don't know where these jammers are however.

There are no IR jammers. There are only passive countermeasures (i.e. the upturned exhausts) and flares.

Edited November 23, 2021 by AlphaOneSix

[Yuto]

This will help with understanding how the CMWS works and about the Disco ball AFAIK they started removing them in the 2000s because of the ASPI and CMWS, they also made it redundant and there are some stories of it attracting missiles instead of jamming it iirc they are cleared for use but the US army doesn't want to use them hence why u don't see it anymore so our apache is based off an apache that got its ALQ-144 (disco ball) removed or just never had it in the first place.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Yuto

[MoarDakka]

On 11/22/2021 at 7:52 PM, AlphaOneSix said:

There are no IR jammers. There are only passive countermeasures (i.e. the upturned exhausts) and flares.

 

This is pretty surprising. Maybe the flares they use now are a lot more sophisticated than older ones? I know the ALQ-144 is a pretty old system now but I would have expected them to be using improved versions of that until a new IR jammer was introduced. Of course detecting a missile launch is a huge part in being able to defeat it so I'm sure the birds with CMWS are a lot better off than the older ones.

I know DIRCM is a big ticket item for a lot of larger aircraft but sooner or later it's going to make its way to smaller ones including helicopters. From what I gather that's going to be the only reliable way to defeat the latest IIR guided missiles.

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, MoarDakka said:

This is pretty surprising. Maybe the flares they use now are a lot more sophisticated than older ones? I know the ALQ-144 is a pretty old system now but I would have expected them to be using improved versions of that until a new IR jammer was introduced. Of course detecting a missile launch is a huge part in being able to defeat it so I'm sure the birds with CMWS are a lot better off than the older ones.

I know DIRCM is a big ticket item for a lot of larger aircraft but sooner or later it's going to make its way to smaller ones including helicopters. From what I gather that's going to be the only reliable way to defeat the latest IIR guided missiles.

You have DIRCM on some helos. Just not the apache version we will get.

 

And yeah flares are fairly sophisticated these days. But the can of worms there is just like ECM/ECCM the details arent exactly known and that limits what you can reasonably expect to model. I mean we have no "simulation" of IR seekers. So CMs are all the same and it's a dice roll. 

I mean our IR missiles and IRSTs all see through clouds right now (hint they cant IRL) as does the AI... sooo most people interested in realism are only flying with clouds as a "decoration". Which is a shame as the tactical effects of weather are very much a real world thing. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Harlikwin

[FalcoGer]

I think we get 2x30 chaff + 1x30 flare dispensers. that seems really low. In the kamov and it's 120 flares I can dodge manpads for days, shoot some out preventively, have some spare for signalling and then come back to base with 30 left. I can spam 30 or even 60 in a couple of seconds if I need/want to and know I have enough left to do the GTFO maneuver.

30 in the apache would be gone really quickly I think. Why didn't they add bigger banks? Even so I'd rather have 30 chaff and 60 flares. radar missiles are typically for higher altitudes and speeds. even something close range for down low like the SA-15 would be easier to dodge than an IR missile, mostly because you can just break LOS, which is easier in a helicopter because you're low anyway.

Also how effective is chaff in a helicopter anyway? I feel like it'd just be scattered and blown away by the rotor wash. I know some radar basics, but not how helicopters would show up as raw data and how chaff would affect the signal. the rotor blades would create something rather distinctive on a doppler pulse radar, I imagine.

[AlphaOneSix]

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Two flare buckets of 30 each, and the single chaff bucket. Also, the chaff shoot up and out from the tail, so it shouldn't be affected much by the rotor wash I don't think.

 

As for why so few, the U.S. has always (to my memory) used flared reactively when a missile is shot at them, whereas the Russians have used them proactively, firing them off in a program for the entire time they are in an area with a suspected IR missile threat.

Edited January 3, 2022 by AlphaOneSix

[Raptor9]

Yeah, it was mentioned in one of the newsletters a while ago that the AH-64D module will get 60x flares and 30x chaff, with no swapping quantities between them.

EDIT: on the features page: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2021-02-26/

The Apache was designed to operate like a sniper, not like a CAS aircraft.  Hide in a small semi-concealed firing position, un-mask, shoot the enemy, re-mask, displace to the next firing position, etc.  Terrain-masking and minimizing its exposure to enemy ADA are its primary defenses.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Raptor9

[Sinclair_76]

On 1/2/2022 at 11:45 PM, FalcoGer said:

Also how effective is chaff in a helicopter anyway? I feel like it'd just be scattered and blown away by the rotor wash. I know some radar basics, but not how helicopters would show up as raw data and how chaff would affect the signal. the rotor blades would create something rather distinctive on a doppler pulse radar, I imagine.

The chaff dispersion is actually optimized. Though not by the main rotor downwash but by the tail rotor. That is the whole reason the bucket is positioned at that location.