Will we get the TISEO (Target Identification System, Electro Optical) and Pave spike?

[HEXO]

The TISEO was equipped on the F4E in 1974 which would be within the time frame of our F4E, same for the Pave spike, it was in operation from 1974.

 

 

^ TISEO

^ Pave Spike

[r4y30n]

TISEO seems likely since it’s effectively the same hardware as the TCS in the F-14.

[WinterH]

My prediction is we'll have Pave Spike but no TISEO on earlier F-4E, and TISEO + probably Pave Tack on later DMAS F-4E. Haven't been able to exactly find whether TISEO is DMAS only or not in primary documentation, but it seems like it.

[SgtPappy]

Keep in mind there is a possibility that this is subject to change (maybe HB can clarify?) but this was the response from HB on my own TISEO question in the other TGP thread (spoiler alert, TISEO is planned on the ARN-101/DMAS-equipped version but not the earlier block 36-45 version):

 

[HEXO]

2 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

Keep in mind there is a possibility that this is subject to change (maybe HB can clarify?) but this was the response from HB on my own TISEO question in the other TGP thread (spoiler alert, TISEO is planned on the ARN-101/DMAS-equipped version but not the earlier block 36-45 version):

 

haha they hate the TISEO they called it an ugly cylinder, it is ugly, but useful since no iff

6 hours ago, WinterH said:

My prediction is we'll have Pave Spike but no TISEO on earlier F-4E, and TISEO + probably Pave Tack on later DMAS F-4E. Haven't been able to exactly find whether TISEO is DMAS only or not in primary documentation, but it seems like it.

they said we will have the pave spike on the block 36-45 and we might have the pave tack on the DMAS version but its too early to determine.

 

[Harlikwin]

2 hours ago, HEXO said:

haha they hate the TISEO they called it an ugly cylinder, it is ugly, but useful since no iff

The F4E had no IFF gear?

[HEXO]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

The F4E had no IFF gear?

not that i know of, the RWR (AN/APR-25 / 26) does not have IFF and the Radar (AN/APQ-120) does not have IFF, or at least there is no reference to it in the manuals

thats why the TISEO exists in the first place, visual identification.

Edited March 2, 2022 by HEXO

[CrazyGman]

Yeah I've been trying to get some more information on this. hard to get a definitive answer.

[SgtPappy]

4 hours ago, HEXO said:

not that i know of, the RWR (AN/APR-25 / 26) does not have IFF and the Radar (AN/APQ-120) does not have IFF, or at least there is no reference to it in the manuals

thats why the TISEO exists in the first place, visual identification.

 

I'm fairly certain that the APX-76 IFF interrogation system was present since at least 1967 on the F-4D. The APQ-109 radar on the F-4D had 8 IFF antennas and the APQ-120 has 4. I am under the impression that this is the standard IFF systems that can identify only friendlies. 

Combat Tree (APX-80/81, not sure yet what the difference is since the 1F-4E-34-1-2 makes reference to both) used the APX-76 controls though they both displayed info on the same screen. Together, you could see friendlies and any MiG transmitting using the SPO-2. 

Hopefully someone can shed more light on this since I'm having a hard time finding the manual that mentioned the APX-76 IFF.

Edited March 3, 2022 by SgtPappy

[HEXO]

3 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

 

Hopefully someone can shed more light on this since I'm having a hard time finding the manual that mentioned the APX-76 IFF.

 

Yup same, its like they don’t want us to know it had iff! the older IFF systems used radio frequency IFF so hostiles would show as unidentified bogeys most times. do you have an idea which version of the AN/APX-76 the F14 uses?

Edited March 3, 2022 by HEXO

[SgtPappy]

8 hours ago, HEXO said:

Yup same, its like they don’t want us to know it had iff! the older IFF systems used radio frequency IFF so hostiles would show as unidentified bogeys most times. do you have an idea which version of the AN/APX-76 the F14 uses?

 

The SAC data for the F-14A in 1977 says the APX-76A(V) is used and the APX-76B(V) is used for the F-14D (1985). 

F-14A (1977) SAC: http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F-14A_Tomcat_SAC_-_April_1977.pdf

F-14D (1985) SAC: http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F-14D_Tomcat_SAC_-_July_1985_(Partially_Declas).pdf

Given the limitations of DCS, I think the IFF will work perfectly every time just like it does with the F-14 right now. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by SgtPappy

[HEXO]

7 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

The SAC data for the F-14A in 1977 says the APX-76A(V) is used and the APX-76B(V) is used for the F-14D (1985). 

F-14A (1977) SAC: http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F-14A_Tomcat_SAC_-_April_1977.pdf

F-14D (1985) SAC: http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F-14D_Tomcat_SAC_-_July_1985_(Partially_Declas).pdf

Given the limitations of DCS, I think the IFF will work perfectly every time just like it does with the F-14 right now. 

 

i see, the thing is that the RWR of the F14 is Complicated, and probably hard to implement

[SgtPappy]

37 minutes ago, HEXO said:

i see, the thing is that the RWR of the F14 is Complicated, and probably hard to implement

I don't follow. The IFF interrogator and RWR systems are separate, independent systems.

[HEXO]

sorry I'm dumb as hell, wrote that at 2:00 am in the morning lmao, I thought about 2 separate topics and wrote the wrong one lmao

Edited March 4, 2022 by HEXO

[Northstar98]

On 3/2/2022 at 9:30 PM, HEXO said:

not that i know of, the RWR (AN/APR-25 / 26) does not have IFF and the Radar (AN/APQ-120) does not have IFF, or at least there is no reference to it in the manuals

Eh?

The -34-1-1 makes reference to the AN/APX-80A interrogator set, in the table of contents...

And the transponder (and its operation) is contained in the -1, pages 1-58 to 1-60...

 

In terms of operating the interrogator; it's contained in the 1F-4C-34-1-1-1, which is a secret supplement (also contains ECM stuff), but there is a button to enable interrogation on the RIO's hand controller, which is described in the 1F-4E-34-1-1 (page 1-100) and, for DMAS aircraft 1F-4E-34-1-1-2 (page 1-58).

Edited March 4, 2022 by Northstar98

[HEXO]

10 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Eh?

The -34-1-1 makes reference to the AN/APX-80A interrogator set, in the table of contents...

And the transponder (and its operation) is contained in the -1, pages 1-58 to 1-60...

 

In terms of operating the interrogator; it's contained in the 1F-4C-34-1-1-1, which is a secret supplement (also contains ECM stuff), but there is a button to enable interrogation on the RIO's hand controller, which is described in the 1F-4E-34-1-1 (page 1-100) and, for DMAS aircraft 1F-4E-34-1-1-2 (page 1-58).

 

in the 1F-4E-34-1-1 there is no reference to the interrogator set nor is there reference to the interrogator button, next time please double check you got everything right, and though the AN/APX-80A was installed on the F4E its only from block 56 and up yet i did not find any reference in any F4E manual (that is out to the public). i would be delighted if you can give me the picture of the page where it references an interrogator set.

[Northstar98]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:42 AM, HEXO said:

in the 1F-4E-34-1-1 there is no reference to the interrogator set nor is there reference to the interrogator button, next time please double check you got everything right, and though the AN/APX-80A was installed on the F4E its only from block 56 and up yet i did not find any reference in any F4E manual (that is out to the public)

Yes there is, to both counts, I even gave you the page numbers.

The -34-1-1 mentions the interrogator set in the table of contents on page 1-1, and mentions the interrogator button (challenge enable button) on page 1-100.

1F-4E-1 circa 1979 makes reference to the AN/APX-81 before 1F-4E-587 and AN/APX-80 after 1F-4E-587, on page 1-17.

In the technical order summary on page 4 of the 1979 1F-4E-1, it states that 1F-4E-587 was applied to aircraft serials 73-01165 and up (corresponding to block 58 and up), but retrofitted to serials 66-0284 to 73-01164 (all preceding aircraft).

On 3/5/2022 at 8:42 AM, HEXO said:

. i would be delighted if you can give me the picture of the page where it references an interrogator set.

Gladly.

EDIT: PM sent.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Northstar98
grammar

[KlarSnow]

The AN/APX-76A display and functionality on the radar scope is also described in the Navair 01-245FDB-1T thats floating around, page 1-156 and on, has what it looks like. Now the navy jets have different radars, but the interrogator system is essentially the same.

This manual is dated 1972 and is for all Navy F-4's in service at the time.

Edited March 5, 2022 by KlarSnow

[WinterH]

Probably you two aren't looking at the same manual, I had that same confusion with a friend because there are quite a few versions/supplements

However, with a quick look at 2 versions of -1 and 2 or 3 versions of -34, I can't find a definitive answer whether pre-DMAS aircraft had interrogation capability or not. As far as I've *heard* APX-80 combat tree was only on some of the select F-4Es, and was more common on F-4Ds. Most manuals did refer to a transponder panel, but that interrogation button on hand controller seem to be on DMAS related supplements, and it only show that such a button exists, which may not be enough of a evidence that capability was availabe as cockpits having non-functional controls that were intented to be added later but didn't end up isn't an unknown thing.

It almost seems like that aircraft which had TISEO and aircraft that may have had IFF interrogation capability are mostly the same ones

[Northstar98]

11 minutes ago, KlarSnow said:

The AN/APX-76A display and functionality on the radar scope is also described in the Navair 01-245FDB-1T thats floating around, page 1-156 and on, has what it looks like. Now the navy jets have different radars, but the interrogator system is essentially the same.

And AFAIK, the interrogator panel essentially just allows you to turn it on, select the mode you want to interrogate (1, 2, 3, 4A, 4B) and what code you want to interrogate (applicable to modes 1, 2 and 3). And then there's a challenge enable button on the RIO's RADAR antenna hand control, much like the F-4E.

Heatblur's own manual for the F-14 describes it too (though the panel is absent in the cockpits of the module).

[KlarSnow]

The 1970 -1 for the F-4C/D/E has the reference for the APX-76 saying to reference the F-4C-34-1-1A. So thats pre DMAS, and applies to the F-4C and D as well as the E... So I think thats pretty conclusive that they had the APX-76... This is specifically referenced on page 1-60 of the 1970 -1, and it says

INTERROGATOR SET AN/APX-76

For description and operation of this set, Refer to T.O. 1F-4C-34-1-1A

If we/ heatblur dont have that particular document the Navair one that shows how the same system works on the navy phantoms is probly more than enough.

Edited March 5, 2022 by KlarSnow

[Northstar98]

On 3/5/2022 at 9:43 AM, WinterH said:

Probably you two aren't looking at the same manual, I had that same confusion with a friend because there are quite a few versions/supplements

However, with a quick look at 2 versions of -1 and 2 or 3 versions of -34, I can't find a definitive answer whether pre-DMAS aircraft had interrogation capability or not.

In a 1979 -1, it states that Phantoms had AN/APX-81 before 1F-4E-587 and AN/APX-80 afterwards. It states that 1F-4E-587 was applied to blocks 58 and up (but retrofitted to all other aircraft).

On 3/5/2022 at 9:43 AM, WinterH said:

Most manuals did refer to a transponder panel, but that interrogation button on hand controller seem to be on DMAS related supplements

Both the -34-1-1 (non-DMAS) shows a hand controller with the button and the -34-1-1-2 (DMAS specific supplement) shows a different hand controller, with the button (though relocated).

On 3/5/2022 at 9:43 AM, WinterH said:

, and it only show that such a button exists, which may not be enough of a evidence that capability was availabe as cockpits having non-functional controls that were intented to be added later but didn't end up isn't an unknown thing.

True, but in the 1979 -1 it makes reference to the presence of either the AN/APX-80 or AN/APX-81 and in the -34 it makes reference to the AN/APX-80.

If the AN/APX-80 was DMAS only, surely it would be mentioned in the DMAS related supplement? As only the button on the hand controller is mentioned.

On 3/5/2022 at 9:52 AM, KlarSnow said:

the 1970 -1 for the F-4C/D/E has the reference for the APX-76 saying to reference the F-4C-34-1-1A. So thats pre DMAS, and applies to the F-4C and D as well as the E... So I think thats pretty conclusive that they had the APX-76...

Interesting, where I'm sat, the 1979 (revised 1983) 1F-4E-34-1-1 states that operation of the AN/APX-80 is contained in the F-4C-34-1-1-1 secret supplement.

 

So the actual answer seems to be AN/APX-76 (which is common to HB's Tomcat according to HB's own manual), and the operation can be found in NAVAIR 01-245FDB-1T page 1-156, 157 and 158), and then sometime after upgraded to AN/APX-81 and sometime after that AN/APX-80.

In any case however, it's pretty clear from plenty of manuals that the F-4E has IFF capability, having both an interrogator and a transponder.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Northstar98

[KlarSnow]

And to further clarify, the combat tree system piggy backed off the APX-76, used the same antennas, just had a different signal generator/box of magic installed to make it work. You cant have combat tree without the AN/APX-76. I dunno if later they just combined the two into a single unit or changed the naming, but you needed the AN/APX-76 to make combat tree work.

 

So to clarify if a jet has Combat tree, it has to have both the AN/APX-76 and the AN/APX-81, eventually they just combined the two designations into one and called it the AN/APX-80, so all of these are the same thing and reliant on the AN/APX-76, which appears to be on all Phantoms of all varieties, going back to at least 1970.

Edited March 5, 2022 by KlarSnow

[KlarSnow]

Continuing just a little deeper a F-4B manual 1-245FDB-1, change 1972, has  both the AN/APX-76 and the Gaintime Interrogators installed, the Gaintime is also mentioned in the F-4C/D/E -1 from 1970. This may be the initial Combat Tree Interrogator, but there's not much out there on it besides this site. Not a whole lot and not really full of super convincing details, but its the only thing on a quick search I could find on what the Gaintime could be.

 

It also says to reference the classified tactical supplements for operation in both the USAF and Navy manuals

Update, was looking in an F-4CDE manual from 1970 and boom up in the effectivity of changes section

All F-4E's were built with the AN/APX-76, and it looks like all F-4C/D but the very initial block of F-4C's (if you QC those F-4C/D serial numbers with the block numbers) this is a list of what changes are effective, so it doesnt give the date this change occured, but should suffice to say that all F-4E's had A/A IFF capability. At most by 1970 (this -1's date) or whenever this change was effective (sometime prior to that) there were at most (assuming the serial numbers of the initial block are sequential) 14 F-4C's, the very first ones that did not have this capability.

Edited March 7, 2022 by KlarSnow

[HEXO]

2 hours ago, WinterH said:

Probably you two aren't looking at the same manual,

yeah that was the case lmao

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

In a 1979 -1, it states that Phantoms had AN/APX-81 before 1F-4E-587 and AN/APX-80 afterwards. It states that 1F-4E-587 was applied to blocks 58 and up (but retrofitted to all other aircraft).

The hand controller is different in the -34-1-1-2, which is the DMAS related supplement.

True, but in the 1979 -1 it makes reference to the presence of either the AN/APX-80 or AN/APX-81 and in the -34 it makes reference to the AN/APX-80.

If the AN/APX-80 was DMAS only, surely it would be mentioned in the DMAS related supplement? As only the button on the hand controller is mentioned.

Interesting, where I'm sat, the 1979 (revised 1983) 1F-4E-34-1-1 states that operation of the AN/APX-80 is contained in the F-4C-34-1-1-1 secret supplement.

 

So the actual answer seems to be AN/APX-76 (which is common to HB's Tomcat according to HB's own manual), and the operation can be found in NAVAIR 01-245FDB-1T page 1-156, 157 and 158), and then sometime after upgraded to AN/APX-81 and sometime after that AN/APX-80.

In any case however, it's pretty clear from plenty of manuals that the F-4E has IFF capability, having both an interrogator and a transponder.

 

yeah i was wrong