investigating MiG-29S & J-11A - Launch Warning produced from R-77 launch in STT.

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

When firing the R-77 in STT the enemy receives a missile launch warning when this should only happen when the missile seeker has gone active.

If I'm not mistaken this is how other digital actives are modeled in game such as the PL-12 and AMRAAM

Until then the target should only see it is being locked.

 

Is this a problem with the Radars in game turning the CW Illuminator on or going into PDI on even though the R-77 does not need it

 

Please let me know if this is an N019 / N001 bug or feature

Edited March 22, 2022 by TaxDollarsAtWork

[Cmptohocah]

I guess it receives updates from the launch platform before it goes active, which triggers the RWR. 

I always wondered, how on earth did the opposide side get their hands on these signals, so they can actually recognise them and trigger a launch warning? 

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

According to ED's current interpretation

M link generation is apparently discrete enough to not spook targets in TWS or STT for these types of missiles since its not CW

So ED should be consistent and fix this though it seems to be just an R-77 issue not a J-11/MiG-29 one

[Kilo]

On 3/24/2022 at 8:28 AM, Cmptohocah said:

I always wondered, how on earth did the opposide side get their hands on these signals, so they can actually recognise them and trigger a launch warning? 

SIGINT. One of those bad boys flying around listening to signals and correlating them to actual events

 

Or one of those, recording every little signal until its untimely demise, for example:

[Sacarino111]

Hi.

I guess that going to  STT will trigger the RWR, with or without a missile flying. Other thing would be if the lock is achieved in the russian TWS, but STT should start the alarms!

Saludos.

Saca111

[Cmptohocah]

4 hours ago, Sacarino111 said:

Hi.

I guess that going to  STT will trigger the RWR, with or without a missile flying. Other thing would be if the lock is achieved in the russian TWS, but STT should start the alarms!

Saludos.

Saca111

Current DCS mechanics for triggering an A2A launch warning is "STT"+"M-Link" (or whatever that link is called ).

[Sacarino111]

2 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Current DCS mechanics for triggering an A2A launch warning is "STT"+"M-Link" (or whatever that link is called ).

Copy

 

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

15 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Current DCS mechanics for triggering an A2A launch warning is "STT"+"M-Link" (or whatever that link is called ).

Teen series aircrafts and the JF17 do not work like this.

You can even put SD10s on the J11 and it'll only give you a launch warning when the missile goes active

[Cmptohocah]

2 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Teen series aircrafts and the JF17 do not work like this.

You can even put SD10s on the J11 and it'll only give you a launch warning when the missile goes active

Yeah, I forgot to mention that what I wrote applies to SARH missiles.

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

Bump

Has ED forgotten FC3?

[Kunze13]

Not to mention the launch and lock warnings given by the 29S's TWS2 mode?

[okopanja]

On 5/3/2022 at 5:24 AM, Kunze13 said:

Not to mention the launch and lock warnings given by the 29S's TWS2 mode?

That also trigger the warning?

[NineLine]

So after all the discussion, is the original post all you are looking for on this topic? If so, reply here and I will request this as an improvement.

[okopanja]

On 6/10/2022 at 5:19 AM, NineLine said:

So after all the discussion, is the original post all you are looking for on this topic? If so, reply here and I will request this as an improvement.

My understanding is that TWS/TWS2 launched R-77 should not produce the launch warning. However, I believe the following is true for just about any fox-3s: sooner or later the signals constituting the updates will be compromised (through SIGINT, but also getting hold of real specimens) and thus enable updates to RWRs.

However at this moment, I believe they are considered as undetectable in DCS?

 

Btw: I appreciate both you and Chizh are actually reading this part of the forum. I came here to check if one issue with FC3 I found was reported before...

Edited June 12, 2022 by okopanja
updated

[Kunze13]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:19 PM, NineLine said:

So after all the discussion, is the original post all you are looking for on this topic? If so, reply here and I will request this as an improvement.

Yes

[GGTharos]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:19 PM, NineLine said:

So after all the discussion, is the original post all you are looking for on this topic? If so, reply here and I will request this as an improvement.

The correction should be missile launch warning on the modules that do not produce it when launching ARH in STT, not the other way around.   That would make no sense IMHO.  The datalink signal is injected into the STT waveform much like a guidance signal would be.  If you have the two signals together you pretty much know what's up.

On 3/22/2022 at 9:16 AM, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Is this a problem with the Radars in game turning the CW Illuminator on or going into PDI on even though the R-77 does not need it

There's no such thing happening; this is a justification and not actual code AFAIK.  In code it's simply produce a warning or not for said type of missile and radar mode combination, where the mode is pretty strictly TWS (or a submode thereof) or STT.

 

And as far as IRL goes, it really doesn't matter wether the R-77 needs it or not, only wether the weapon system produces it or not.  This signal is already injected for R-27Rs, and it would exist in the same space for R-77s ... so I fail to see any logic for not having a missile launch warning; there's no need to even consider PDI or CW here.

Edited July 27, 2022 by GGTharos

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

9 hours ago, GGTharos said:

The correction should be missile launch warning on the modules that do not produce it when launching ARH in STT, not the other way around.   That would make no sense IMHO.  The datalink signal is injected into the STT waveform much like a guidance signal would be.  If you have the two signals together you pretty much know what's up.

There's no such thing happening; this is a justification and not actual code AFAIK.  In code it's simply produce a warning or not for said type of missile and radar mode combination, where the mode is pretty strictly TWS (or a submode thereof) or STT.

 

And as far as IRL goes, it really doesn't matter wether the R-77 needs it or not, only wether the weapon system produces it or not.  This signal is already injected for R-27Rs, and it would exist in the same space for R-77s ... so I fail to see any logic for not having a missile launch warning; there's no need to even consider PDI or CW here.

 

N001s that can fire the R-77 have modified channels for guiding it and the symbology even is different

 

Its not a case of having the weapon come up with R-27R symbology and WEZ and being treated as one by the FCS so you are wrong.

 

According to EDs interpretation of it the R-77 from the J-11 it should not produce a missile launch warning until it is active

 

Now unless you have proof for your claims go away

The thread has been derailed enough

Edited July 28, 2022 by TaxDollarsAtWork

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

According to EDs interpretation of it the R-77 from the J-11 it should not produce a missile launch warning until it is active

ED doesn't get everything right.

1 hour ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

Now unless you have proof for your claims go away

No one has proof of anything, just strong indications from other weapons and how the system works over all.   So no, I will not 'go away', my argument is solid.

Edited July 28, 2022 by GGTharos

[Seaeagle]

On 7/28/2022 at 1:36 AM, GGTharos said:

And as far as IRL goes, it really doesn't matter wether the R-77 needs it or not, only wether the weapon system produces it or not. 

Agreed but..

On 7/28/2022 at 1:36 AM, GGTharos said:

This signal is already injected for R-27Rs, and it would exist in the same space for R-77s ... so I fail to see any logic for not having a missile launch warning; there's no need to even consider PDI or CW here.

The question is if it should even be possible to launch an R-77 through the original radar routine. From descriptions of the modified N019 and N001 radars, indications are that R-77/RVV-AE compliance is achieved only via the add-on "SNP2" mode specifically for the purpose, which as far as I can tell is a completely separate routine and one that may not even include an SST submode(since the weapon doesn't need it). If this perception is correct, its a case of a somewhat simplistic implementation, where the add-on radar routine exists in parallel with the original one rather than being integrated with it and e.g.  automatically activated when the selected weapon is an R-77.

[GGTharos]

Are you aware of any TWS mode that includes an STT sub-mode?  For that matter, what do we know about SNP2?

[Seaeagle]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

Are you aware of any TWS mode that includes an STT sub-mode?

Not understood.  I was talking about a separate targeting sequence that doesn't involve automatic transition from SNP to STT in the end like its the case with the original N019.

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

 

  For that matter, what do we know about SNP2?

Well at least we know the above. 

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

On 7/29/2022 at 4:46 PM, Seaeagle said:

Not understood.  I was talking about a separate targeting sequence that doesn't involve automatic transition from SNP to STT in the end like its the case with the original N019.

Well at least we know the above. 

This is further substantiated by these post confirming it
 

Here a dev talks about how R-77 usage in the J-11A and Su-30MKK manual varies very differently from a typical SARH launch

And here Chizh gives us more detail about it

What I also find a little perplexing about all of this @GGTharos is how I need to tell remind you of things that you conveniently forget

On this page the special processor/bypass is mentioned. And on the next page you post something, with how often you lurk on that thread you obviously read this before.

I'd like to see what solid evidence you have to the contrary, not speculative fiction and conjecture.

But if it really is something like old age making you prone to forget, and not a case of you arguing in bad faith.
Allow me to remind you to take your meds and multivitamins today sir.

Edited August 1, 2022 by TaxDollarsAtWork

[GGTharos]

6 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

But if it really is something like old age making you prone to forget, and not a case of you arguing in bad faith.
Allow me to remind you to take your meds and multivitamins today sir.

Great, thanks for the info on SNP2.   That was cool.

The really funny part is how you accuse me of losing the plot, when the subject was, let me quote you:

On 3/22/2022 at 9:16 AM, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

When firing the R-77 in STT the enemy receives a missile launch warning when this should only happen when the missile seeker has gone active.

And this is exactly what I responded to.   So why don't you go ahead and show anything that isn't conjecture and fantasy regarding RWRs not picking up an ARH launched in STT.

[Cmptohocah]

A little bit off topic, but does it produce any indication in TWS (SNP2) mode?

[okopanja]

I think only indication should be painting of radar in TWS2, if this is what you meant?