The F-35 Thread

[red_coreSix]

Try to compare F-15 with Su-35S, F-15E with Su-34, F-18E with Mig-35 and F-22 and F-35 with Su-57.

 

I don't see many scenarios where a Su-35 would have an advantage over the F-15. And F-22/35 vs Su-57? I don't think you can call the Su-57 5th gen to be honest, it won't come close to either F-22/35 in terms of sensor fusion and avionics imo. I've seen head-on RCS figures of 0.5m^2 for the Su-57...

[wilky510]

There's no way you could buy 2 Su-57's for a single F-35. I can't believe people seriously think the PAK-FA is gonna cost 50 million...

[Esac_mirmidon]

The F-35 cost around 120 million each.

 

Russian sources claims the Su-57 will be around 50 to 60 million each. ( if Russia and India keep funding it ). But any final price would be cheaper than the F-35 for sure.

 

If you cant see that and F-15 and a Su35S are comparable then there is not much to discuss.

 

For Su-57 sensors, fusion, avionics nobody knows for sure how capable it is or it would be in the future. What we already know is:

 

Definitive Engines Izdelye 30 that provides around 24.000 lbf in dry thrust and 39.600 at full afterburner, so fully supercruise here.

 

Radar cross section claimed by Sukhoi to be around 0.1 sq/m plus RAM coated. So yes more stealthy than any 4 or 4++ fighter. Not so good as the F-22 for sure.

 

N-036 X-Band Radar fully AESA with 1552 T7R modules and 2 X-Band side radars plus another 2 L-Band radars on the wings for IFF.

 

SH121 Integrated electronics system. ( Main X-band radar, 2 X-Band side Radars, 2 L-Band radars )

 

101KS Electro-optical system that includes:

 

- 101KS-V Infrared search and track turret. ( OLS-50M )

- 101KS-0 Infrared countermeasures system. ( laser countermeasures against IR missiles )

- 101KS-U Ultraviolet missiles Warning system.

- 101KS-N Navigation and Targeting Pod.

 

All integrated in the IMA-BK integrated modular system. So truly data fusion.

 

Himalaya Self Protection System.

 

So Su-57 is a truly 5th Generation Fighter, with all the characteristics: Supercruise-Stealth-Data Fusion.

 

And no. Its not on par with the F-22 or the F-35 but is enough to be superior to any 4 and 4+ generation fighters. Is cheaper than the US counterparts and has room to be developed if Russia is able to throw more money on it ( and India XDD )

Edited October 25, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[red_coreSix]

If you cant see that and F-15 and a Su35S are comparable then there is not much to discuss.

 

Didn't say they're not comparable, they certainly are. But I don't think a Su-35 stacks up against an F-15 (with AESA).

 

Radar cross section claimed by Sukhoi to be around 0.1 sq/m plus RAM coated. So yes more stealthy than any 4 or 4++ fighter. Not so good as the F-22 for sure.

 

Not really, you can get 0.1 sq/m on F-16s and Typhoons too. And for a 5th gen fighter that's very much supposed to rival F-22/35 that's not much.

 

For Su-57 sensors, fusion, avionics nobody knows for sure how capable it is or it would be in the future. What we already know is:...So Su-57 is a truly 5th Generation Fighter, with all the characteristics: Supercruise-Stealth-Data Fusion.

 

All that stuff sounds impressive on paper, but whether it actually performs is another thing. I'm just saying you're comparing something (F-22) that has been around for over 10 years and is proven technology against something (Su-57) that is still in flight-testing.:)

[Esac_mirmidon]

I´m saying all the time the Su-57 IS NOT COMPARABLE to F-35 or F-22.

 

All i´m trying to said is that is or is going to be a TRUE 5th generation fighter better than any 4 or 4+ fighters.

 

On a side note the best RCS from Eurofighters, Rafales or F-16 are on clean configuration. So if you want them to fly without weapons the RCS is not a factor against Su-57. And the claimed improved RCS for Eurofighers are around 0.25.

 

With missiles RCS is much higher.

[red_coreSix]

I´m saying all the time the Su-57 IS NOT COMPARABLE to F-35 or F-22.

 

All i´m trying to said is that is or is going to be a TRUE 5th generation fighter better than any 4 or 4+ fighters.

 

You said it right here though:

 

Try to compare F-15 with Su-35S, F-15E with Su-34, F-18E with Mig-35 and F-22 and F-35 with Su-57.

 

And how do you know it's a "True" 5th gen fighter, the F-22/35 pretty much set the standard, if it doesn't match their performance you can't really call it 5th gen imho, gonna leave it at that.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Compare is not the same as comparable. I´m spanish but i know the difference between both words. Talking about food you can compare a cow with a brick, but they are not comparable.

 

This is getting pointless.

 

5th generation fighters are described as: Stealthy-Super Cruise capable-Data fusion capable.

 

The Su-57 has all of this. Matching best perfomance is out of the equation. You have this capabilites or not.

 

Another thing is what 5th generation fighter EXCELS in that three categories. And the Su-57 is not that fighter. That dont mean is not a TRULY 5th generation fighter. It is. Period.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[frixon28]

The F-35 cost around 120 million each.

 

The most recent batch of F-35A's were bought for 94 million USD a piece . Considering that the F-35A is by far the most dominant model being produced, I have to say its nearly 1/4 the cost of what you listed.

 

Source - https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/09/f35-cost-pentagon-to-take-control-of-huge-jet-bill.html

It would be nice to discuss the SU-57/Pak Fa or any other fighter or country, but lets please do it in it's correct thread. This is the F-35 thread, not a comparison thread (this is not aimed at anyone in particular)

 

Back to topic of "The F-35 Thread", Lockheed Martin itself is aiming to lower the cost of the F-35A to $80 Million USD per piece by 2020, and the government wants it even cheaper.

 

Source - https://www.airforcetimes.com/air/2017/10/24/pentagon-kicks-off-intensive-f-35-cost-review/

[frixon28]

Compare is not the same as comparable. I´m spanish but i know the difference between both words. Talking about food you can compare a cow with a brick, but they are not comparable.

 

This is getting pointless.

 

5th generation fighters are described as: Stealthy-Super Cruise capable-Data fusion capable.

 

The Su-57 has all of this. Matching best perfomance is out of the equation. You have this capabilites or not.

 

Another thing is what 5th generation fighter EXCELS in that three categories. And the Su-57 is not that fighter. That dont mean is not a TRULY 5th generation fighter. It is. Period.

 

Not to sound like a raging mini-mod but can we all try to keep this thread involved with the F-35 and not the SU-57, or anything else off topic. These are awesome topics to discuss on their own thread. Mods can you please delete any info on this thread not involving the F-35 and this post also. Thank you and this is not aimed at anyone

Edited October 25, 2017 by frixon28

[Esac_mirmidon]

Sure.

 

Sorry.

 

No need to delete anything. I will stop.

[Alfa]

The most recent batch of F-35A's were bought for 94 million USD a piece . Considering that the F-35A is by far the most dominant model being produced, I have to say its nearly 1/4 the cost of what you listed.

 

Well nearly 1/4 less than the cost he listed(120 million USD) :) . Mind you that is for the F-35A version - the -C and especially the -B are a lot more expensive.

 

But yes - as production is ramped up, the 2020 unit price for an F-35A is expected to be around USD 80 million.

[Hummingbird]

Just stumbled over this:

https://southfront.org/israel-hiding-state-art-f-35-warplane-hit-syrian-s-200-missile-reports/

 

Not sure what to make of this seeing as the F-35 should be very well capable of handling a birdstrike according to extensive testing by LM, yet said aircraft is allegedly out for good due to "extensive damage to its anti radar coating". On other hand it's hard to believe that an S-200 successfully tracked and hit an F-35.

 

*scratches head*

[red_coreSix]

I think it's just propaganda. Why would they even fly into the WEZ of the S-200?

 

https://theaviationist.com/2017/03/17/syria-claims-it-shot-down-an-israeli-combat-plane-israel-denies-dissecting-the-last-iaf-strike-on-damascus/

 

Edit: Also, southfront lol..

[Hummingbird]

Well that an F-35 is put completely out of commision by a bird aint that good of story either tbh, even if I do heavily prefer it to one being tracked & hit by an old S-200 as that would be downright scary.

[gospadin]

Well that an F-35 is put completely out of commision by a bird aint that good of story either tbh, even if I do heavily prefer it to one being tracked & hit by an old S-200 as that would be downright scary.

 

The original article quoted the IAF who said it'd be back operational "in the coming days."

 

http://www.kan.org.il/item/?itemId=23623

 

Not sure it's a big deal, but better to take the time to double-check the RAM than risk being detected on a mission.

[Mr_Burns]

I worked on Radomes for Typhoon, if you dont know, its the pointy end of the aircraft and its made of a composite so the radar behind it can see through it.

 

These things are sensitive, we had fitters filing them to make them fit and other things.

 

When they are made, there is step in the manufacture where they are sat in a jig with an Antenna out front. It sends a signal through the radome where a robotic arm uses the signal to place "paint" on the inside to ensure that any slight manufacturing differences (air pockets, curing times) which may affect the unifromity of the travel of radar waves through the radome is corrected.

 

Can you imagine that a Stealth Aircrafts entire design and skin is so precise that each aircraft has the same cross section the issues with fixing a bird strike would create?

 

Its not like fixing a fiber glass caravan, the slightest variation changes the aircraft stealth profile, heck even an invisible angle may make a radar return that of a pigeon rather than a humming bird.

[mvsgas]

That article is sensationalize. Every aircraft is "unserviceable" after a bird strike and of course an aircraft would not be done after RAM or RAS damage. It just takes more time to repair. Other aircraft, after a bird strike, you might be able to replace a panel and be done, painting it could be done at a later date. On stealth, the paint or coating is a bit more important. The aircraft could fly with out it, but maybe the IAF choose not to. Other reasons are that they may not have spare parts surplus yet ( on what ever specific item was damage if any) and had to wait for the part to be send from LM, it happens on all aircraft. Sounds like is making a mountain out of an ant hill.

 

Edit:

The more I think about the story the less sense it make. Why use a F-35 to strike a SAM site instead of a F-16I or F-15I? They have far less F-35s, they cost more than F-16/15, their crew are less experience with the systems and it is more useful for deep strikes. F-16I/15I will be better suited for the mission: Crews will be more experience and two people per aircraft so task can be shared, more aircraft available, more weapons available ( F-16I/15I have been tested and clear to carry a larger variety of weapons). A flight of two F-16I ( as an example) could have the lead aircraft carry 4 HARMs and the wing man 4 bomb, one suppresses the other drops bombs. It would be a far less risk monetarily, strategically, etc. Besides, S-200 system has huge missiles, the warhead are in the hundreds of kg range. I doubt any aircraft hit would be able to make it home. Also the missiles are not that agile (because of their size and speed) so, they can go far and fast but not turn as well as other systems. Anyway, it just does not make sense to me, but what do I know?

Edited October 27, 2017 by mvsgas

[Weta43]

Why use a F-35 to strike a SAM site instead of a F-16I or F-15I?

 

Without accepting that the story's premise is true, in answer to that question...

 

Maybe because if the Russian Defense Minister was in meetings with the Israeli prime minister, then sitting across from him knowing that the Syrian's would have reported back to him that they had just been hit and never detected the aircraft that struck would be a nice strategic upper hand to have in talks ?

 

"We can do this any time we want and there's nothing you can do about it ! " ???

 

Also - again not accepting that it happened, that missile has a command detonation feature, so if they used some long wavelength EWR they'd see the aircraft was 'somewhere there-ish' & if they just launched at that area & exploded the (like you said - 478 lb is big) warhead, they might easily cause minor damage if the missile wasn't actually that close when it went off.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Weta43

[mvsgas]

"We can do this any time we want and there's nothing you can do about it ! " ???

 

I thought Israel has proven that twice with operation Orchard and Opera, which they use non stealth aircraft and where still capable to attack deep target with impunity.

[Weta43]

Regionally, against tier 2 and tier 3 forces - sure.

 

Hardly the same thing though, and maybe missing the point about bragging rights.

 

Opera was essentially a sneak attack where the Israeli's flew false flag then ran in NOE against a country that was nominally an American Ally at the time (bombing French civilians at the compound in the process)

(2 years later in 1983 - recognise the arms salesman on the left closing the deal ?)

http://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

 

It was more a demonstration that a sucker punch against someone not expecting to be hit will usually work than a demonstration of their invincibility.

 

Orchard was perhaps a very public and loud interesting demonstration of EW - against a second rate opponent - or maybe an early demonstration of Cyber Warfare :

 

https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/design/the-hunt-for-the-kill-switch/0

 

(which would explain why the Israeli's had such a hard bottom line about not accepting US avionics in their F-35's).

 

Neither case was a demonstration of the effectiveness of the stealth of their brand spanking new F-35's to a visiting dignitary from a country they wish to demonstrate their military might to, which if this were a strike by F-35's, and they'd got away undamaged, it could have been...

[mvsgas]

Definition of Occam's razor. :a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.

.

[Weta43]

Oh I agree, and the story's finding that

'there was a strike'

& that

'an F-35 is damaged at about the same time'

is a very long way from showing any actual connection between the 2.

 

My point was not that it's the most likely explanation of the events, only that it's not outside the realms of credibility.

[garrya]

Oh I agree, and the story's finding that

'there was a strike'

& that

'an F-35 is damaged at about the same time'

is a very long way from showing any actual connection between the 2.

 

The F-35 was actually damaged 2 weeks earlier. According to Syrian Defense Forces side of the story, the missile score a direct hit, if that was the case the aircraft would have vaporized because S-200 has 200 kg warhead. I don't think even a tank can take that nevermind fragile aircraft

 

Well that an F-35 is put completely out of commision by a bird aint that good of story either tbh

The aircraft fly a few day later, TBH bird strike can result in quite devastating damage

Edited October 30, 2017 by garrya

[Emu]

When has an S-200 ever scored a direct hit? Why do you think it has a 200kg warhead? A missile that was going off course and blowing up hospitals during Operation Grand Canyon in '86 is suddenly capable of nailing F-35s bang on the nose?

[wilky510]

Garrya, while i commend you on using reason; your sane responses are falling on deaf ears. Weta is anti US anything, and hummingbird has shown himself to be very anti F-35. So any 'bad' news against the F-35 is good news to them.

 

Not surprising that they are backing a fake story to fit their agenda.