IFF or averting blue on blue

[Dropbear]

Playing the Georgian Oil campaign and am having real issues trying to identify blue forces from red.

 

Is there any sort of IFF interrogation built into the BlackShark? At the moment my IFF system involves asking the wingman to attack,and if he doesn't I assume it's a blue unit..

 

I'd like to try something a little more 'realistic' than asking my buddy if he has a clue whether it's a friendly or not.

[JonK]

Ground forces do not carry IFF Systems. If if you could interrogate, they wouldn't reply.

 

Best thing to do is Visually ID them through your camera, know what the good guys look like, and know what the bad guys look like. Also, take into account the direction in which the enemy is coming, and where the friendly line is before going out, this can make it easier in determining their ID.

[Dropbear]

If you're fighting the georgians then typically they're using soviet equipment...

 

relyin on which way a tank is pointing seems rather 'low tech'..

[EvilBivol-1]

...which is why Russian armor was often seen sporting white cloth wrapped around the barrels in Georgia. IFF.

 

In reality, you would probably be in communication with a FAC/AFAC when conducting your attacks. This functionality is currently missing as an AI function in Black Shark, but can be simulated with triggers.

Edited December 27, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[Grodin]

blue on blue is realistic.

 

To avoid it, you could cheat with labels or map markers ;)

 

Wish they had those IRL too.. Oh well, as long as you take out more enemies than own ppl, you are on the winning side i guess :D

[Dropbear]

I'm sure in RL the russians had forward air controllers or someone they could radio to ascertain if a couple of tanks were friendly or not. We have no such luxuries in the confines of the sim :)..

[Dropbear]

To avoid it, you could cheat with labels or map markers

 

 

yeh I realise that but I loathe labels.. competely throws the suspension of disbelief out the window for me ...

 

I can't believe modern soviet MBT's don't carry IFF equipment.

[Grodin]

I'm sure in RL the russians had forward air controllers or someone they could radio to ascertain if a couple of tanks were friendly or not. We have no such luxuries in the confines of the sim :)..

 

 

Mistakes happen, atleast USA has LOTS of blue on blue incidents. Not sure if russia has any.. someone who sees their news could tell us ^^

[Grodin]

yeh I realise that but I loathe labels.. competely throws the suspension of disbelief out the window for me ...

 

I can't believe modern soviet MBT's don't carry IFF equipment.

 

 

Basic IFF goes out of the window when you fly a box with no IR cameras at all :lol:

 

 

Oh but hey, maybe them tanks could flash a huge flashlights in patterns at our shkval camera as IFF!

 

And while you write that flashing morsecode up and try to keep your box trimmed while figuring if its friendly flash or foe, you could flash your own flashlight back at them incase they wonder if you are friendly or not, we have a spotlight for that too.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Grodin

[tusler]

Just Killem all and let God sort them out! :cry::megalol:

[Flanker15]

I guess the only way is to make a detailed study of the mission plan and memorise the opertating areas of all friendlies. Just hope no one is out of area (including you!).

That ordering your wingman to fire on them to test IFF is a pretty good "cheat" though, ED should patch that out.

[drummer]

I use the F10 key as my IFF. I think of it as a visual representation of AWACs or forward air controller communications. It still needs cross checking several times with your heading and location but worth it for the peace of mind avoiding blue on blue. :cry:

[d0ppler]

Heh, I accidentally managed to blow up two friendly tanks last night during the campaign. I understood it right away that I killed the wrong tanks and since I didn't wanted that particular "achievement" on my record, I took the most unrealistic remedy : I killed the DCS.exe process from the task manager and reflew the mission :D

[Wags]

A lot will depend on the mission designer. For example, when creating the Oil War campaign missions, the two sides will most often NOT share the same unit types in the same mission. In chapter 1 for instance, Russia will use T-80 and the Georgians will use T-72 and T-55. In the briefing, the types of units assigned to the enemy are listed (assuming not hidden).

[Sealpup]

...which is why Russian armor was often seen sporting white cloth wrapped around the barrels in Georgia. IFF.

 

Any chance of getting the ability to set alternate skins for ground vehicles to simulate this in a later patch?

[d0ppler]

Any chance of getting the ability to set alternate skins for ground vehicles to simulate this in a later patch?

 

That was a good idea actually!

[Sealpup]

Either alternate skins, or perhaps toggleable alternate ID markings. Like barrel bands or invasion stripes or subdued flags painted on the side/top of the hull.

[Dropbear]

Any chance of getting the ability to set alternate skins for ground vehicles to simulate this in a later patch?

 

 

don't know how this would work with the shkval, but yeh.. good idea

[JimMack]

I use the F10 key as my IFF. I think of it as a visual representation of AWACs or forward air controller communications. It still needs cross checking several times with your heading and location but worth it for the peace of mind avoiding blue on blue. :cry:

 

The advice above is not unrealistic. For instance, in the current Brit Apache one gets a downlink from a Nimrod or UAV on your MFD. Regarding IFF on vehicles - implemented on some USA kit, Brits still trying to decide which system to implement.

[Beaker_VBA]

Mistakes happen, atleast USA has LOTS of blue on blue incidents. Not sure if russia has any.. someone who sees their news could tell us ^^

 

 

Assuming their news tells them. :music_whistling: Sorry, bad joke. :D

[d0ppler]

When I was in the airforce 12 years ago I heard a story with the use of AIM-120 Amraam. If I can recall correctly, during the Gulf War 4 planes where shot down with this missile; 3 foes and one friendly.

So these things happens.

Edited December 28, 2008 by d0ppler

[verana_ss]

I guess the only way is to make a detailed study of the mission plan and memorise the opertating areas of all friendlies. Just hope no one is out of area (including you!).

 

agreed :)

that is what briefing exist for.

vehicle(s) which is on TGT point(s) area are expected enemy

Edited December 28, 2008 by verana_ss

[VikVaughan]

I guess the only way is to make a detailed study of the mission plan and memorise the opertating areas of all friendlies. Just hope no one is out of area (including you!).

That ordering your wingman to fire on them to test IFF is a pretty good "cheat" though, ED should patch that out.

 

 

I think, instead, they should patch in FAC, or communication abilities that provide current information on the active battlefield and friendly positions, or a system of equivalent functionality to help pilots identify targets. Nobody blindly fires at targets in real life without positive identification, even if they know there 'should' be enemy in the area. Relying on the direction a vehicle is facing, or a trick using your wingman, or labels, is just not up to it. This is just straying into "video game" territory.

 

I'm having a hard time absorbing the fact that no such functionality was designed into the software in the first place. This should have been basic. A glaring oversight IMO. My appologies if anyone takes my criticism negatively.

Edited December 28, 2008 by VikVaughan

[Ferski]

An average computer screen dimension compared to a real cockpit is very small, add to that screen resolutions and the problem can be even harder, so i suppose identification of targets or incoming missiles is a lot harder and problematic for the simmer.

Triggers with intel messages should be a good method to identify them and the use of labels at the range that vehicles, aircraft and missiles are really identificable in real life could help too.

 

In this video we can see how works the identification of targets in real battle, in this case it was a blue on blue incident (USA A-10 killing armored brits vehicles);

part 1

part 2

Edited December 28, 2008 by Ferski

[miguez]

Hi Ferski,

 

Wow, that's really an eye opener of a video! Thanks for the links.