KA-50 is it really any good?

[Vault]

Right, because the RWR's and all those other high-tech doodads totally prevented those 40-odd Apaches from being totally bush-whacked by a load of point-and-shoot AAA ... at night :)

 

I think you're severely misunderstanding the primary threat these helicopters fight.

 

Maybe I am. Are MBT's, armour and personell the primary targets of attack Helos?. Are MANpads, AAA and small arms still a helo magnet? Still doesn't change the fact that radar guided AAA will be invisible to any pilot without a RWR.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Vault
typo

[SwingKid]

I think the answer is the same - not enough practical value to justify the costs (not only financial, but general).

 

My impression is that certain Russian airframe manufacturers have exclusive partnership deals with certain Russian avionics firms - and those under-the-table agreements are successful at leaving competitors out in the cold.

 

We saw this before with the MiG-29K - which carried Zhuk planar antenna radar, R-77, Kh-31, etc. - vs. Su-27K, which was stuck with same tired old variants of MiG-29A radar and R-27, introducing no new avionics at all.

 

In this case it seems that Mil's experience and market position gave them exclusive advantages with integrated military avionics - RWR, mast-mounted radar, etc. - where Kamov scrambled to bundle in a hodge-podge of whatever standalone, off-the-shelf products were left on the market (ABRIS, laser warning detector, and whatever that super-secret two-LED thumbstick was, that they stuck to the HUD frame with hockey tape).

 

Note that even the Shkval and Vikhr - having a precedent as "Sukhoi"-associated products - would have been available and exempt from any such MiG/Mil avionics monopoly.

 

The idea that an RWR was deemed impractical seems particularly dubious when they decided to install a laser detector. You can jam or suppress scanning radar-guided AAA long before it shoots at you if you detect it first - what are you supposed to do against a tank shell that's already inbound?

Edited December 29, 2008 by SwingKid

[GGTharos]

EXACTLY as invisible as the stuff without a radar.

Heli doctrine is to not get themselves into such a position in the first place. What'll you do when you get a lock signal from a radar AAA? 'Cause by the time you react, the rounds are on top of you. These aren't typically search radars - they're track-and-shoot, and it all happens quick.

 

Maybe I am. Are MBT's, armour and personell the primary targets of attack Helos?. Are MANpads, AAA and small arms still a helo magnet? Still doesn't change the fact that radar guided AAA will be invisible to any pilot without a RWR.

[Spartan1-1]

Oh I don't know - I thought it was rather nice. :)

 

Spartan1-1:

I don't think any amount of funding would have convinced Kamov to retain a second crewmember. The Ka-50 was clearly designed for maximum thrust-to-weight at all costs. Why this particular metric was considered more important than pilot's eyes, sensors and UI has probably less to do with money and more with hubris, because the Ka-52 addressing these shortcomings was born of even poorer funding. At what point can we call a design flaw a design flaw?

 

Love the avatar.

 

Oh, im not arguing the single seat. I agree. I just see alot of negatives from the avionics / weapons systems side. My point is, and I might be wrong, alot of the issues w/ the Ka-50 stem from a lack of cutting edge systems (i.e. RWR, Radar, fire-and-forget systems). US helos were lacking many of these features as well in the 80's but were added on later. B/C of the small number of Ka-50's produced there is probobly minimal upgrading going on. Unlike US birds that are constantly getting overhauled as well as new blocs and so on.

[Vault]

EXACTLY as invisible as the stuff without a radar.

Heli doctrine is to not get themselves into such a position in the first place. What'll you do when you get a lock signal from a radar AAA? 'Cause by the time you react, the rounds are on top of you. These aren't typically search radars - they're track-and-shoot, and it all happens quick.

 

Nice comment but there's flipside to that coin. No pilot would delibratley place themselves in that position but it can and does happen, A plan is good when it works. I agree a lock signal is bad when your in the assets WEZ but what happens when you pick up an unobserved enemy emitting a search signal or a lock signal when your outside the WEZ? your going to love having RWR then.

RWR is certainly no be all and end all but IMO it's a must have. This is exactly why alot of western Helos have RWR because they can and do get picked up by enemy RF energy. Any aircraft flying "dumb" in an active warzone with no means to alert the pilot to RF guided weapons is just plain suicidal.

[Spartan1-1]

Do you have any practical idea of the reliability of any RWR down in the weeds? Let alone an old, Soviet RWR? :)

Personally, I don't know and would be interested to find out, but my guess would be that it's largely useless in an environment where radar energy is bouncing all around you.

 

From personal experience. Ive been in several helos in combat. Their RWR's were spot on. Everything that radiated, and anything that painted the bird. On top of "heat bloom" detectors and auto countermeasures. Not saying these extra toys make or break the helo, but theyre nice to have. That being said I think one of the good things about the Ka-50 are its lack of "digital battlefield" equipment. In my prior post I was trying to say that the A/C designed for the European Front are still getting shot down in the Afghani / Georgian front. I think in some ways a helo w/ a gun, and a pilot look w/ his own eyes can be more effective than a millimeter wave radar.

[EvilBivol-1]

Thanks Spartan, that is useful to know.

 

From what we can tell, the Mi-28N's being accepted by the Russian military into service are also not currently equipped with a RWR, eventhough a more advanced system is currently available. In this case, I believe the reason is both financial and tactical (i.e. they have not needed it for the past 30 years and are having a hard time believing it's worth the cost). Perhaps the conflict in Georgia, where the Russians faced and took serious losses from air defenses, will change that. Or perhaps not, because at the end of the day, the overall campaign was decidedly successful irrespective of the outdated hardware used and lack of "wizz-bang" electronics. This will be interesting to watch.

 

Going back to the Ka-50, my argument is not that no RWR is better than having an RWR. Obviously, this would be illogical. The argument is that having a poor RWR is no better or maybe worse than no RWR, because it is mostly useless at best and counterproductive at worst. IMHO, the SPO-15 that was the standard Soviet RWR at the time would fall under "poor RWR" for a combat helicopter and this is one of the reasons it is not a standard fit on Russian helicopters. There may be other reasons, including financial and industry ones.

 

In turn, this history of not utilizing RWRs on helicopters, combined with about 30 years of combat action against enemy forces not equipped with radar-guided weapons and no real expectation of fighting such forces in the near future has lead the Russian military to exclude RWR equipment even today, when new machines and systems are available. Plus, again, there is the question of cost, which is certainly not irrelevant.

Edited December 29, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[Vault]

I think Kamov built the KA-50 around two things, a single pilot and a big gun. I think as well as budget problems the KA-50 as it stands is the maximum workload a single pilot can cope with effectivley in combat. Adding RWR, Radar and complex avionics to the equation wasn't even an option for a single pilot helicopter.

[AlphaOneSix]

I fly all the time in a warzone, without an RWR, and I don't consider it suicidal at all. Primarily because the vast majority of modern warzones (including the one I occupy) do not include a radar-based threat.

[tflash]

Ka-50 is certainly not only chopper without RWR, and it has solid defenses against IR-threats.

 

I find Abris+Schkval+Autopilot quite state-of-the art, I guess it must be a very good AFAC platform? Has it been used in this role in Chechnya that anyone knows? I mean scouting for ground threats and radioing this info to ground troops/ strike units? Or was it more classic engagement of ground units with rockets and gun?

 

I sure would want an Abris in my car! I'm a little tired of my Michelin GPS anyway ;) And datalinking bar addresses to other cars must me supercool!

[Boberro]

I read Ka-50 was used in Chechenya and it was first true combat test. From ones sources I read it was sucessful test, from another it wasn't. I know Ka destroyed extremist locations, don't know more info about real combat situations with ka-50.

 

RWR is not needed by chopper at all... it is not radar SEAD machine:) Its role is to destroy ground targets as tanks, BMPs, IR SAMS ect but I don't think for radar sams. For this tasks we have example Su-24 in Russian forces, same as equivalent in USAF. Please correct me if I am wrong ;]

Edited December 29, 2008 by Boberro

[Mugatu]

Tflash: You must be living in the dark ages there re state of the art :P The ABRIS is quite nice, but the rest are prehistoric. The KA-52 on the other hand, from the pics, looks more like the real deal.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Mugatu

[John Cool]

Personally I think that a kind of optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) like Mak-UFM dual band IR/UV warning system suits more to the Ka-50 defensive equipment than classic RWR. In that way a wide variety of incoming missiles can be spotted, including short range IR missiles and in some cases even guided anti-tank missiles.

 

In addition, sensors of Mak-UFM system was seen ealier on a few Ka-50's airframes, like Ka-50 board no. '25'.

 

Edited December 29, 2008 by John Cool

[Alfa]

 

From what we can tell, the Mi-28N's being accepted by the Russian military into service are also not currently equipped with a RWR, eventhough a more advanced system is currently available.

 

How can you tell Evil?. The Pastel RWS use MFD for displaying threat picture and the new Mi-28N has several of them....or were you looking for external sensors?.

 

In this case, I believe the reason is both financial and tactical (i.e. they have not needed it for the past 30 years and are having a hard time believing it's worth the cost).

 

All pictures I have seen of Mi-28 cockpits(even old banged-up prototypes) showed an SPO-15 display, so it would seem odd(to say the least) if the new up-tech'ed Mi-28N has no RWS - especially considering that the Mi-28 was mentioned specifically among the intended recipients of the Pastel system.

 

Anyway, if anything one could argue that radar warning equipment is more important for Russian helicopters now than during the cold war. NATO ground forces tended to go for IR(Stinger) based mobile SAM systems(such as Avenger and Linebacker) against which an RWS is of no use, but in the more recent regional conflicts, Russian forces have faced airdefence systems of their own manufacture, which often involves radar for both detection and(another) for target acquisition.

[X-man]

Anyway, if anything one could argue that radar warning equipment is more important for Russian helicopters now than during the cold war. NATO ground forces tended to go for IR(Stinger) based mobile SAM systems(such as Avenger and Linebacker) against which an RWS is of no use, but in the more recent regional conflicts, Russian forces have faced airdefence systems of their own manufacture, which often involves radar for both detection and(another) for target acquisition.

x2

[Haukka81]

x2

 

 

10x :pilotfly:

[Spartan1-1]

I read Ka-50 was used in Chechenya and it was first true combat test. From ones sources I read it was sucessful test, from another it wasn't. I know Ka destroyed extremist locations, don't know more info about real combat situations with ka-50.

 

RWR is not needed by chopper at all... it is not radar SEAD machine:) Its role is to destroy ground targets as tanks, BMPs, IR SAMS ect but I don't think for radar sams. For this tasks we have example Su-24 in Russian forces, same as equivalent in USAF. Please correct me if I am wrong ;]

 

RWR's are not just for weasels. They improve the crews SA dramatically. I dont know if the cost is truly an issue, they appear to be relatively simple devices... not that far off from my cobra laser/radar anti-speed trap device in my truck. I know they work well in a low level environment. Seen them in action in desert a mountain environments. But I do agree that they are not mission essential. The big threat is medium caliber guns, and IR mapads. For the manpads there are "heat bloom" sensors that can detect a missle launch within close proximity. That would be nice to have on a Ka.

[Feuerfalke]

Nowadays they're pretty much changing the combat style to hit & run instead of hiding behind cover to pop up & fire.

 

This is not a new tactic. It was discussed before that pop-up and fire was obselete nowadays. It is not. It was just not neccessary in the latest conflicts we saw, as the largest thread for US and Russian Helos were shoulder-fired IR-missiles. Neither Georgia nor Iraq had any sophisticated SAM-network ready when the war was on, not even daring to speak of air superiority. And best defense of against small arms and those IGLAS and Stingers is to go at medium altitudes and at rather high speeds. That doesn't mean its a new general doctrine, though.

 

On the other hand pop-up and fire doesn't work out all by itself anyway. As a sniper fires a maximum of 3 shots from the same position, then trouble is heading your way. Tatics for helos are much the same: Sneak, recon, fireposition, hit and the run like hell. Jets are a lot faster than you in a real combat environment.

And with the KA and the lack of a RWR you wouldn't even notice until it's too late....

 

@Boberro:

RWR is not needed by chopper at all... it is not radar SEAD machine

That simply couldn't be more off. Just look at the wars in Iraq. They were ALL started by waves of helos taking out the EWRs and SAMs before the jets arrived. Apaches took out the SAMs, the bombers C3.

 

 

The KA-50 may not be suited for this sort of task, but that is surely not a common rule for helos.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Feuerfalke

[GGTharos]

I think the simplest way to put it is that the Ka-50 may have had a somewhat unlucky development history, and right now its equipment suits its role (special ops, taking out insurgent hideouts etc)

[EvilBivol-1]

How can you tell Evil?. The Pastel RWS use MFD for displaying threat picture and the new Mi-28N has several of them....or were you looking for external sensors?.

Well, first of all, it's not really me. I'm not that good. :) As with our previous discussion on Russian radars and their ability to compensate for roll, I get my cues from some Russian forum members. But yes, the question is in the external sensors or lack thereof. Why, do you see any anntennae on the Mi-28's that could serve as a RWR?

 

If you look at this photo, you will see the "dogtooth" piece under the missile guidance radar:

http://www.wpeu.net/www1/wallpaper/html/choiceness/web/20060129002212(16).htm

 

Presumably, that is the Pastel' RWS receiver for the front hemisphere. The problem is that it's nowhere to be found on production airframes.

 

All pictures I have seen of Mi-28 cockpits(even old banged-up prototypes) showed an SPO-15 display, so it would seem odd(to say the least) if the new up-tech'ed Mi-28N has no RWS - especially considering that the Mi-28 was mentioned specifically among the intended recipients of the Pastel system.

Just because it can, doesn't mean it does. Again, this is not for certain and even if true today, may not be true tomorrow, but it appears that serial production machines lack the equipment.

Anyway, if anything one could argue that radar warning equipment is more important for Russian helicopters now than during the cold war. NATO ground forces tended to go for IR(Stinger) based mobile SAM systems(such as Avenger and Linebacker) against which an RWS is of no use, but in the more recent regional conflicts, Russian forces have faced airdefence systems of their own manufacture, which often involves radar for both detection and(another) for target acquisition.

Yes, here I agree. Georgia may yet have an impact. Or at least you would think so, but since when has apparent logic been the guide in weapons procurement? We'll see.

 

For now, there is more to muse on... the mast-mounted radar of the Mi-28N is also missing in action. Latest reports are that it may be all-together abandoned. It's also unclear if the Ka-52 will ever receive its radar. The Ka-52 was displayed carrying Ataka ATGMs, indicating that the Russian military may be moving toward unifying the two platforms. At the same time, they announced an upgrade program to the Mi-28N (yeah, the one that is barely entering production in as yet incomplete form), which will likely be aimed at not only fixing some of the existing issues, but also further unifying the two helicopter types. So they may end up with radar-less, Ataka-armed Mi-28NMs and Ka-52s.

Edited December 30, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[Peyoteros]

OK, 2008 and here comes KA-52

 

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/helicopters/IMG_2450_sm.jpg.html

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/helicopters/IMG_2448_sm.jpg.html

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/helicopters/IMG_2484_sm.jpg.html

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/helicopters/IMG_2485_sm.jpg.html

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/helicopters/IMG_2486_sm.jpg.html

[Boberro]

OK, 2008 and here comes KA-52

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/helicopters/IMG_2484_sm.jpg.html

 

Full spectrum of LCDs and old analog amperometer :D

[Peyoteros]

As we both know one should not relay on electronic gear completely. And it's also could be final testing stage, not permenant.

[nscode]

There's no way that the big Amp-meter is standard equipment.

[muamshai]

There's no way that the big Amp-meter is standard equipment.

Of course, it is...to hotwire Ka if needed. :D