Real-World Standard Circuit (Break To Land) M2000 Procedure?

[CommandT]

Hey folks, 

Does anyone know the real-world standard circuit to land for the M2000? Height, speed, ect? Can't find it anywhere! Searched the manuals, forums, google, youtube etc... nothing! Seems kind of bizarre! 

[Ramsay]

1 hour ago, CommandT said:

Does anyone know the real-world standard circuit to land for the M2000? Height, speed, ect? Can't find it anywhere! Searched the manuals, forums, google, youtube etc... nothing!

Not sure if this is a RL SOP but this is a procedure described by Helljumper as given by a SME

Mirage 2000C Break procedure:
- 350 kt / 1500 ft initial APP selected on PCA, seat raised.
- 60° AoB break, idle and airbrakes.
- Slow down until 200 kt.
- Maintain 200 kt and close the airbrakes, reduce the bank to 40°.
- Once on the downwind, gear down.
- When passing the runway threshold, 40° AoB, FPM at -7°.
- Once on the last 90° of the turn, look at the runway and adjust pitch and AoB.

AFAIK touch down is at 14° AoA

Example video using an earlier version of the flight model.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Ramsay

[CommandT]

Thanks! Would be interesting to find out the source! Cheers though!

[myHelljumper]

The above is correct.

I don't know what more would you want as a source. I got the procedure from an active Mirage 2000C pilot a few years ago.

[CommandT]

22 hours ago, myHelljumper said:

The above is correct.

I don't know what more would you want as a source. I got the procedure from an active Mirage 2000C pilot a few years ago.

Ah perfect! Thanks for that!!  

[cmbaviator]

what is the G for the brake turn ? in the F16, it is said about 1% of airspeed, Ie if its 350kt, you brake at 3.5g and slowly relax the stick as the speed decreases

 

Besides, in final I can't speed on speed AoA and correctly trim, if i press une click of nose Up trim, it pitches up a lot and i need to trimnose down one click. therefore, i always need to hold some back pressure during final, even with the FPV and Chevron in the middle of the bracket. Besides i need constantly to jerk the throttle, seems very sensible

[Wrcknbckr]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:46 PM, Ramsay said:

Mirage 2000C Break procedure:
- 350 kt / 1500 ft initial APP selected on PCA, seat raised.
- 60° AoB break, idle and airbrakes.
 

19 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

what is the G for the brake turn ?

Maintaining 60° AoB break, idle and airbrakes, while maintaining altitude would be a steady 2G right?

[cmbaviator]

19 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

Maintaining 60° AoB break, idle and airbrakes, while maintaining altitude would be a steady 2G right?

what is AoB ?

[Ramsay]

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

what is AoB ?

Angle of Bank

1 hour ago, Wrcknbckr said:

Maintaining 60° AoB break, idle and airbrakes, while maintaining altitude would be a steady 2G right?

Using Tacview to look at one of my (rough) landings, shows an initial ~3G break at 350 KIAS that reduces in the turn to ~2G at 200 KIAS before levelling out for the downwind leg.

However I wouldn't guarantee I am flying the procedure 100% correctly and 2G is the "classroom" answer for 60° of bank.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ramsay
Add classroom answer

[cmbaviator]

2 hours ago, Ramsay said:

Angle of Bank

Using Tacview to look at one of my (rough) landings, shows an initial ~3G break at 350 KIAS that reduces in the turn to ~2G at 200 KIAS before levelling out for the downwind leg.

However I wouldn't guarantee I am flying the procedure 100% correctly and 2G is the "classroom" answer for 60° of bank.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, yes indeed, flying level at 60° is 2G: Load Factor: 1 / Cos(Theta), Theta being the bank angle in rad

[El Chapo]

This part is not correct :

"Slow down until 200 kt.
- Maintain 200 kt" 

You should slow down to 14°AOA and keep in mind this reference speed. 

You'll have to maintien it in short final while on axis. 

[cmbaviator]

13 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

This part is not correct :

"Slow down until 200 kt.
- Maintain 200 kt" 

You should slow down to 14°AOA and keep in mind this reference speed. 

You'll have to maintien it in short final while on axis. 

Indeed but i don't like to be on Speed AOA before finale. i generally like to be above 12° before finale turn

[Ramsay]

7 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

This part is not correct :

"Slow down until 200 kt.
- Maintain 200 kt" 

You should slow down to 14°AOA and keep in mind this reference speed.

So you are saying that IRL on speed 14°AoA is targeted (after the break) and the downwind leg of the circuit is NOT flown at 200 KIAS ?

[El Chapo]

Yes, that's what I mean. 

Standar procedure is:

• Initial at 2000' QFE 350kt
• Descend 1500' QFE
• Break (middle of runway) 60°, idle, airbrakes on
• 220kt: check TNS warning, airbakes off
• Check engine response by slightly increasing RPM
• Gear down
• APP mode
• Check 3 greens no red light 
• Check SPAD (frein light off) 
• Trim plane
• At AOA 13° increase RPM
• Stabilise AOA at 14° and keep note of speed
• Check hydraulic pressure 
• Turn when runway is 45° aft
• Slope - 7 to - 8°
• AOB around 40°
• Check 900' at 90° from runway 
• AOB on demand to get on axis
• AP off at 200'
• VVI on runway threshold 
• Idle when overflying the runway threshold, nose on runway end
• Once touched down: keep nose up until 110kt, unless in case of drag chute use (nose down ASAP) 
• Nose wheel on runway: DIRAV on
• Check engine on ground idle
• Braking action : check - 0.2<Jx<-0.3

Once feeling at ease with this procedure, it can be expedited :

• Break beginning of runway at any speed (540kt+) 
• Maximum G break
• Start final turn abeam threshold

Some people use Airbrakes when wheels on the ground. 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by El Chapo

[cmbaviator]

What does AoB mean please ?

[Despayre]

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

What does AoB mean please ?

Ramsay answered you above.

Angle of Bank.

[myHelljumper]

On 9/20/2022 at 3:31 PM, El Chapo said:

This part is not correct :

"Slow down until 200 kt.
- Maintain 200 kt" 

You should slow down to 14°AOA and keep in mind this reference speed. 

You'll have to maintien it in short final while on axis. 

As said previously this break procedure was given to me by an active 2000C pilot so it's not "not correct".

Different break procedures are used by different pilots/squadrons, the one you describes looks like the textbook procedure.

[El Chapo]

The above procedure is what the 2/5 sqn teaches new pilots. It's the Truth as revealed by the Holy Father.

Everything else is not official procedure, even if it works, whether you like it or not. 

[jaguara5]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:04 PM, El Chapo said:

Yes, that's what I mean. 

Standar procedure is:

• Initial at 2000' QFE 350kt
• Descend 1500' QFE
• Break (middle of runway) 60°, idle, airbrakes on
• 220kt: check TNS warning, airbakes off
• Check engine response by slightly increasing RPM
• Gear down
• APP mode
• Check 3 greens no red light 
• Check SPAD (frein light off) 
• Trim plane
• At AOA 13° increase RPM
• Stabilise AOA at 14° and keep note of speed
• Check hydraulic pressure 
• Turn when runway is 45° aft
• Slope - 7 to - 8°
• AOB around 40°
• Check 900' at 90° from runway 
• AOB on demand to get on axis
• AP off at 200'
• VVI on runway threshold 
• Idle when overflying the runway threshold, nose on runway end
• Once touched down: keep nose up until 110kt, unless in case of drag chute use (nose down ASAP) 
• Nose wheel on runway: DIRAV on
• Check engine on ground idle
• Braking action : check - 0.2<Jx<-0.3

Once feeling at ease with this procedure, it can be expedited :

• Break beginning of runway at any speed (540kt+) 
• Maximum G break
• Start final turn abeam threshold

Some people use Airbrakes when wheels on the ground. 

 

 

That's very similar to the procedure a HAF M2000 pilot (who had just finished his type rating)  told me. Indeed they don't follow the rule maintain 200kts, they fly ~ on speed AoA on downwind, speed is around 150 - 160 kts depending on the configuration of the plane). Target rpm is 75%. Hydraulic pressure is checked before lowering the gear, to ensure that there is enough hydraulic power to do that. On final the pilot finetunes triming by releasing momentarily (for 2 sec he said ''you count 1001 - 1002)  the AP trigger.  Rest is identical

Edited October 17, 2022 by jaguara5

[cmbaviator]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:08 AM, jaguara5 said:

That's very similar to the procedure a HAF M2000 pilot (who had just finished his type rating)  told me. Indeed they don't follow the rule maintain 200kts, they fly ~ on speed AoA on downwind, speed is around 150 - 160 kts depending on the configuration of the plane). Target rpm is 75%. Hydraulic pressure is checked before lowering the gear, to ensure that there is enough hydraulic power to do that. On final the pilot finetunes triming by releasing momentarily (for 2 sec he said ''you count 1001 - 1002)  the AP trigger.  Rest is identical

 

thanks for you input. However why would you need trimming in  a FBW aircraft ? The 2000C in DCS never requires you to trim in normal situation, i tried to trim once and even one tap on the trim will make huge pitch deviation and its uncontrollable, trimming is required maybe in a failure situation

 

or maybe i didn't understand what you meant by Releasing momentarily the AP disconnect ?

[jaguara5]

If j have understood correctly the pilot thre downwind/ final turn was flown with little higher than on speed aoa to have a safety margin ( fhey  emphasized the 75% target rpm rule). So the plane needs little finetuning  to be correctly trimmed for landing (on speed aoa) and before dissngaging at 200ft the AP. There is a video of a HAF Hud  tape flying the pattern where you can see this. If you are interested wi,l try to find it. E + ghe m2000 get trimmed when the ap disengage paddle in front  of the stick is not pressed (see razbsms manual how trimming is working) so because   the pilot is flyimg manually the final turn with the paddle depressed there is  the need for little retrimming

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by jaguara5

[cmbaviator]

32 minutes ago, jaguara5 said:

If j have understood correctly the pilot thre downwind/ final turn was flown with little higher than on speed aoa to have a safety margin ( fhey  emphasized the 75% target rpm rule). So the plane needs little finetuning  to be correctly trimmed for landing (on speed aoa) and before dissngaging at 200ft the AP. There is a video of a HAF Hud  tape flying the pattern where you can see this. If you are interested wi,l try to find it. E + ghe m2000 get trimmed when the ap disengage paddle in front  of the stick is not pressed (see razbsms manual how trimming is working) so because   the pilot is flyimg manually the final turn with the paddle depressed there is  the need for little retrimming

 

 

 

 

Yes I understand but there is autotrimming in the 2000, why would you use the AP in the first place for a visual approach and even if you disengage the AP, when you'll slow the aircraft down until being on speed AoA, the plane will automatically trim it for you

[El Chapo]

The auto trim only works while AP is green. When it's orange or off, you have to trim manually. 

As for any other aircraft, as long as flight conditions are not varying much, there is no real need for trimming. 

But in the break, speed is changing a lot, the aircraft needs a lot of trimming to be in a fine condition for landing. 

It's good habit to do it manually on a regular basis instead of going through the AP, otherwise when you'll have to land with AP failure you'll be very surprised.

[cmbaviator]

1 hour ago, El Chapo said:

The auto trim only works while AP is green. When it's orange or off, you have to trim manually. 

As for any other aircraft, as long as flight conditions are not varying much, there is no real need for trimming. 

But in the break, speed is changing a lot, the aircraft needs a lot of trimming to be in a fine condition for landing. 

It's good habit to do it manually on a regular basis instead of going through the AP, otherwise when you'll have to land with AP failure you'll be very surprised.

you don't nneed to trim anytime in a 2000 unkless you have a damaged airframe or FBW failure. in the A320 you don't trim at all in normal law. in a B737 you have to trim anytime just like a F1 mirage.

the 2000 is flight path stable ie, it will maintain the flight path for any config and speed change and at 1G, you would need only to trimm in the 2000 in turns maybe but even, you dont need mùuch backpressure.

Conclusion:

the 2000c autotrims at all times with AP off provided there is no damaged airferame and no failure of the FBW. besides trimming in the DCS version is useless as one tap on the trim makes the aircraft unstable.

[El Chapo]

As you said above, FBW trim the aircraft for 1G. As soon as you are in a sustained turn or pull (e.g. you are circling around a target, or you are doing a loop) the aircraft will need trimming. It's also true when configuration is changing: a trimmed aicraft before lowering the gear will need re-trimming once the gear is down. Another case is when you are in a high angle of slope.

It's because, I belive, the aircraft is not "path stable" as you said, but "G" stable. The auto-trim is for "1G" on aicraft axis.

Moreover, auto-trim is only around the lateral axis (pitch). There is no auto trim for roll.

Maybe you feel like that there is no need for trimming in DCS, but be assured that nobody would fly the real plane without a trim, even without failure.